Re: [orca-list] Naming, shaming and flaming (was Re: LibreOffice and orca: moving to headings, links, tables etc.)

[Devin Prater <r d t prater gmail com>]

Hmm, I don't remember if I did send a debug.out on the Docs issue. I'll send one just in case.

Devin Prater

r d t prater gmail com

On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 11:01 PM Kyle via orca-list <orca-list gnome org> wrote:

Devin Prater pounded out:
> Okay, so before, when I said that Orca is sluggish with tables in
> Docs, and that NVDA isn't, in response to Nimer saying that the OP
> should try Docs, you went on a rant about how I shouldn't be comparing
> Orca to a Windows screen reader which the developer of Orca doesn't
> have access to. Just to not leave any stones unturned, why do you
> assume the Orca developer doesn't have access to Windows, with Windows
> screen readers?


First, I did not go on a rant. I pointed out that you compare apples to
oranges, and instead of simply reporting the bug somewhere between Orca,
at-spi and Firefox, you just said that Orca is sluggish in some places,
but that NVDA does not have the same problem on an operating system
where everything is fundamentally different, and even the hacky
work-arounds that the screen reader uses have to have hacky work-arounds
just to keep things somewhat functional. Did you send a debug.out to try
to help with reporting the bug? Did you simply say that Orca is sluggish
in some areas in Google Docs, or did you throw in that little commercial
that says come over here because this is so much better; the
sluggishness doesn't happen over here? The point is that we are talking
about Orca and how it interacts with Linux browsers, whether Firefox or
Brave or Chrome or whatever, and what happens or doesn't happen even
with Talkback or Voiceover is completely irrelevant.


Secondly, you haven't been on this list as long as I have, so you
probably are unaware of what the primary developer of Orca uses. First
of all, Joanie is employed by Igalia

https://www.igalia.com/

which is a software consultancy company working strictly with open
source software. She has worked in this space for many years, and as far
as I know, the only not quite open source operating system she has ever
accessed was Solaris after Sun Microsystems kicked their accessibility
team to the curb probably about 12 or more years back; at that time,
Orca was being developed primarily on Solaris, Sun Microsystems'
distribution of Unix. She hasn't exactly been top secret about the
machines she has access to either. In any case, even if she did have
access to any other non-Linux, non-Unix operating system, it still would
be irrelevant to Orca and Linux accessibility, since the frameworks are
fundamentally different, and are not at all interchangeable. This would
be like asking why your toaster is not a microwave. Sure both heat up
food, but they do it in very different ways.


> Also, you're very willing to throw lots of shade at Windows, but when
> some one even points out Linux's flaws, you get so defensive. This
> does not help Linux accessibility, it doesn't help Orca development
> that people in the blind Linux community just stick to the few Linux
> GUI apps that we've been using for the past 15 years, and it doesn't
> help that you, Kyle, are always bashing other operating systems.


I point out bugs and flaws that I see here, but I'm just as quick to
point out the flaws of other operating systems when someone decides that
they want to advertise for another OS instead of simple and
straight-forward bug reporting. There is no place for talk of other
operating systems here, because again, it has no bearing on what bugs we
have here or how they can be fixed. The way NVDA handles things simply
will not work here, so there is no need to even mention it. Try asking
your microwave to toast bread for you ... that's just not the way it
heats it.


And regarding the whole pointing out Linux flaws and/or bugs, Joanie
will probably be the first to tell you what a rant I went on when a
"focus mode" in Orca was still just a thought. I was perfectly happy
with being able to hit a text entry field and just start typing, tab off
and then change whatever in the next field. It worked for me perfectly.
Now we have this focus mode, which I personally found counterproductive.
My productivity is severely diminished by such a mode switch, since
being automatic is not a default. Fortunately for me, there is a setting
that will automatically switch focus mode on or off depending on how I
get to what type of control, giving me back most of the behavior I came
to expect and trust to make me productive. And then there was the whole
page summary and all the Chatty Cathy stuff that Orca started doing by
default. Oh boy did I give an earful for that or what? Sorry Joanie, I
know that had to hurt. Fortunately for me again, all that extra
announcement stuff and that page summary stuff that I was getting
already on-demand through the use of the WhereAmI function, although it
is a default setting now, can still be turned off, giving me back all
the productivity I had before Orca's defaults became so chatty that I
just couldn't cope. Still, these are antifeatures with which I certainly
expressed my dissatisfaction, and there have been others as well. So no,
I don't just bash other operating systems for the sake of bashing. I
report bugs, request features, and certainly point out what I feel are
flaws or mistakes that cause me to be less productive. I don't however
slide in any advertisements or unnecessary comparisons of things that
don't have any bearing on my productivity right here on the operating
system and software I use every day and the screen reader I use with it.

>
> Now, do I bash Linux sometimes? Yeah, ...


And therein lies the entirety of the problem. You want to use it, use
it. By all means report the bugs you find. But bashing the operating
system you claim to love so much is quite unhelpful to the state of
things, and i dare say it even slows down development. Just report the
bugs you find, request features, but again, don't bash Linux, just
report the bugs; don't advertise something else that is completely
irrelevant, just report the bug or request the feature. Just an example
of this, I have a document where I am embedding mp3 files. I either see
a bug or need a feature added to LibreOffice that is keyboard
accessibility to play the embedded mp3 file, as I can't even get it to
play from its right-click menu. I will not however mention any other
office applications that are fundamentally different, I only point out
that keyboard access to the media controls in LibreOffice writer is
either a missing feature that should be implemented or a bug that needs
to be fixed in LibreOffice Writer. It makes no sense to mention Google
Docs, Apple Pages or Microsoft Office, since they are entirely different
pieces of software, even though they do similar things. My bug report or
feature request is with LibreOffice writer, so that is the only software
that I need to be mentioning in my bug report or feature request. I only
mentioned that earlier on this list because it's possible that it's not
a bug or a missing feature at all, but simply user error, something I
don't know how to use, being the first time I have tried it. Still, the
fact remains that it is specific to LibreOffice Writer, so every other
word processor or document viewer, even Firefox or Chrome, is irrelevant.

~Kyle

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