On Monday, 23 May, 2011 01:32 AM, jordan wrote:
> Will you please stop this? I'm sorry, but you are refusing to give any good
> examples whatsoever of how it's harder to use the interface and this thread
> is going in circles because of it (which you blame on me, which isn't the
> case at all). You are just assuming that, because some people don't like it,
> that it *has* to be bad, when there are many, many happy GNOME 3 users that
> don't resort to fallback mode. Please do not respond to this until you stop
> repeating the same message over and over without examples. GNOME cannot move
> forward (for your definition of "forward") without solid evidence that it
> would be better to do so; seriously, how can anybody expect GNOME to change
> without proper reasoning behind it? It would be illogical to do otherwise.
I think it is important to point out that there have been just as many
unhappy gnome-users as there are happy ones. Gnome has been completely
dropped from UbuntuStudio (they don't like Unity or Gnome-Shell),
because the gnome-shell workflow is incompatible with what most
multimedia-desktop users require, as far as usability is concerned...
Mint isn't using gnome-shell and many many many people have switched
to Xfce or KDE.
This is one I think is a valid concern, I will also be using
Multimedia apps for recording and it looks like GNOME Shell is not
the right _desktop_ _shell_ at this rate. I remember one poster here
who complains, but with no solution for the moment, and for sure he
switch to another DE. So my question is, how is GNOME shell was
designed from the ground-up with compatibility between applications
especially for those 3D apps? Is this a valid concern? I hope for
3.2 things will get easier.
I don't plan on using gnome-shell anytime soon, and i know a ton of
people who feel the exact same way. No one i work with likes it. My
dad had me come over to his place this weekend to replace Gnome-Shell
with a Gnome 3 compiz desktop - neither him or my step-mom liked using
the shell - AT ALL! ~ they used it for a month - which was plenty of
time to adjust - frankly if a DE takes any longer to adjust to - then
there is a serious design problem - and cannot be passed of as being
the user's own fault/problem.... My step-mom is your semi-average PC
user, she obviously knows her way around windows - she knows her way
around OSX, and has been using Linux for alomst a year, now.... My
dad, like myself - works as a sys-admin, and has used most OSes,
dating back to CPM. we've had to adjust to many interfaces over the
years, and gnome-shell for us has been - by far, the worst DE to have
to get used to (and in my case - it isn't even a viable option,
currently).
I still check in on gnome-shell's progress - ie: i have gnome-shell
fully customized, some extensions, themes, etc. I use it every day or
so, and also whenever an update comes through. I read blogs and find
out about the latest stuff.... But or me, GS isn't good enough yet,
not even close. Tablet/stylus support is terrible and the
interraction with the interface can be quite limited, slow and that
isn't including other problems (yes, nvidia still sucks in GS compared
to compiz - and i am running the latest beta, and also had tried the
latest release before moving to nvidia 275.xx)
basically we are told that mice/pointing devices are a waste of time,
and that we should be using the keyboard (how 1983ish). Then when the
person gives an example of the types of applications, they actually
are using for their argument/reasoning - it quickly becomes apparent
as to why they think the keyboard is the only way to go...ie: they
mainly use IDE's, Libre Office, etc. For that type of usage - i would
agree the keyboard is probably the best way to go, but what about
users who are not using these types of applications, nearly as much???
what about people who use applications like Ardour, Gimp, MyPaint,
Firefox, rawstudio, cinepaint, blender, etc...and other types of
applications that are actually EASIER and BETTER to use with a
pointing device???(any device that isn't a keyboard, essentially)
What about the majority of desktop users who aren''t all that
interested in relying on a keyboard for every task??? (which happens
to be the vast majority fo users)... the truth of the matter is that
the best kinds of UI/GUIs are ones that integrate multiple ways of
getting any single given task done - not only with a keyboard, but
potentially mice, tablets, stylus, multitouch, voice, and hopefully
camera's as well, sometime in the future...
hopefully, GTK will eventually provide better integration for other
types of interfaces, which could solve my issues anyway. In particular
i would love to see proper stylus/tablet support... but currently
Gnome doesn't provide such facility - and whenever i have seen someone
bring up pointing devices - they are told they are wrong to be using
their PC in this way - so i would argue some valid points definitely
are ignored - and like Tim pointed out, many people of this list just
repeat the same old crap - you haven't given gnome-shell a chance, or
use your keyboard instead....
So i do really think, although Tim's approach may not be the best way
to go (neither was mine when i was peeved about some design
decisions), there is some validity to what disgruntled users like
himself are saying, though.
Gnome-Shell hasn't proven itself over Gnome2 (to me gnome 3 has, just
not the shell) - if it had, you wouldn't see it being dropped from
distributions and you wouldn't see so many users switching, or
complaining nearly as much...
> The *only* potentially good reason I've heard for, say, wanting a window
> list, is that some users like using the mouse and don't want to have to use
> the keyboard. In some (not all) cases this is the fault of the user for not
> trying to use both of their hands, but in other cases, such as if the user
> has only one hand or rarely has two hands available, it can be worked around
> with an extension. There are many, many extensions that enable a GNOME
> 2-like experience (application menu, icons on the top panel, moving the
> clock, etc.) and if GNOME 3 *cannot possibly fit into a user's workflow*,
> some extensions can help remedy that.
I'm glad you've said "in some (not all) cases".... I have zero
interest in using a keyboard to navigate, open apps, managing
desktops, switching applications, administration of my system - such
as updating the system, installing applications (from the command
line, using all gestures), etc. I can do ALL of these tasks faster
with my Stylus, than even possible with a keyboard. navigating
doesn't even require clicking (in the case of viewing all desktops,
scale plugin, etc... For example;
1.switching desktops can be done by a "pen-stroke" or gesture. to
reveal all desktops i do not even require a "click".
2.to use scale (all applications, from all desktop, in a
"natural-view", same thing - i can just move my stylus (no clicking,
or having to enter "activities").
3. entering large commands and passwords.... i would love to see
anyone using a keyboard try to type a password like this;
"1234h13k5243k767gkj6748kk567hj2452kjngfsbfgbnsktrkvqk4jn562jn7jnkk3k45jn6ysfgwstyhjUYETYBWTRHWtyh45146"
..in a shorter time, than i can execute this with my stylus/tablet -
it would be straight up impossible to execute this faster with a
keyboard.... and while using easystroke with Gnome-Shell i can do some
stuff, using GS actually breaks so many other friendly and handy
features i have been using for years, that GS actually limits my
productivity - because the shell doesn't have facility for users like
myself. (hell, im still waiting for GTK to provide proper
tablet/stylus support)
4.i would love to see someone, open a terminal, install/upgrade
software, enter their password faster than i can with a tablet - it's
not even possible. by the time they finished opening a terminal and
typing, i would already be downloading and upgrading the system...and
yet i have seen several people on this list try to convince people
there is no faster way than a keyboard. I think it turns out that
these people do not own modern interfaces, or atleast do not make good
use of them.
anyway, my point is there have been lots of requests ignored that may
actually be valid, by people on this list. As a gentleman pointed out
to me, when i went on a big-ugly rant (which i apologized for) - most
people developing gnome, are programmers, not people focused on using
multimedia, gaming, etc - which are all general desktop applications,
in any popular OS.
there has been much more focus on what programmers want, and office
type usages - but other desktop usage out of that scope - has been put
on the shelf.... I wonder how many gnome-shell developers actually
own a tablet (adding padding to widgets and claiming gnome-shell is
tablet friendly is a far cry from REAL tablet support!) ....or how
many are using their desktop beyond IDE's, libre office, and the
commandline???? (and of course obvious things like web-browsing). How
many are gamers? how many are graphic artists? how many are
proaudio-users?
So really, it's easy to brush off how disgruntled gnome-users may use
their desktop, and instead tell them they should be doing things
another way, which might be the proper way for that particular user,
using certain types of applications..... while for these other
gnome-users who have different requirements - it doesn't even make
sense to do things that way. I would never use a keyboard for half of
the things that have been recommended to people on this list....
*** Tim - i would say your approach here on the list, will get you
nowhere. You either need to invest some time in learning/tweaking
gnome-shell, or wait until Gnome-Shell becomes more usable (as in a
ton of 3rd-party extensions), or do as i have done, which is build
your desktop around Gnome 3 without gnome-shell (i don't use
gnome-panel or GDM, i use compiz, kupfer, etc) - it isn't that hard
to do, and for me anyway, i actually prefer gnome 3 to gnome 2 -
"under the hood" - G3 is much nicer, cleaner, less buggy and more
reliable than Gnome2....it isn't the big inconvenience you think. As
a fedora user i would assume you are comfortable with linux, right?
if so, you should be able to easily switch things around however you like....
..or you can just ditch Gnome all together, as it seems you have
already done - and many other people have done.
I for one, will stick with Gnome3, and watch progress of gnome-shell
(as i can run my desktop the way I want, while also being able to use
GNome-Shell if i choose to) - but if it never works well for my
particular workflow, than i will continue to use "fallback", and if
Gnome-developers break support for fallback, then they just lost
another user...
Hopefully, this doesn't happen. I do really like the Gnome 3 stack,
and it is an improvement over gnome 2 in many many ways,....and i
should be allowed to run my gnome desktop how i like - not be told by
people whom don't even use a computer the way that i do, like they
know better ~ because they don't! (contrary to what their own
arrogance may tell them). it's my desktop, and i have been using
Linux for years and years - i know what is best for my
workflow/desktop, and what the best options are for me. Developers may
define certain standards ~ but it is users who determine their fate.
the extra 30min/1hr that it takes to customize my gnome desktop, after
a fresh install (that gnome-shell is trying really hard to "do away
with"), leaves me with a much more usable, optimal desktop, with
higher functionality than Gnome-Shell currently can provide - it's
faster, more efficient and easier to use.... and is worth the extra
effort! i don't believe GS will catch up for at least a year or two.
we will see what happens. So again Tim, i would just do what works for
you - don't bother fighting with people on this list. They know how
they want gnome to be, and like Ryan has pointed out - many of these
topics have been discussed over and over again... Gnome-Shell's design
isn't going to change.....
if gnome-shell is going to be successful ~ as i said, at the end of
the day it will be it's users who determine that. Not the developers
and that is the reality. So far, it's a pretty mixed bag - hopefully
gnome 3.2 will be a better release.
jordan
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