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Re: [orca-list] Progress update on the "List of" dialogs

Heh, you're totally right, of course.  I use Jaws every day and don't use
these keystrokes at all.  Well, the exception to the rule is the screen
scanner.  You can have Jaws scan and ocr your screen and then the screen
acts like it's accessible.  I was able to use some QT applications in
Windows like that.  It's a royal pain in the brisket though.  So, I was
wrong.  Jaws does use these layered keystrokes.  I'm using Jaws 14 and I
stil use the traditional old way of doing things I've used since I first
started using jaws back in 96.  

Alex M





-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of
Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 3:16 PM
To: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Progress update on the "List of" dialogs

Well, I stopped using JAWS not long after layered keys were implemented, but
JAWS definitely does have this layered command input method. Note that this
alternative way of entering JAWS commands does not interfere with the
traditional way of using JAWS keyboard commands, as you describe below.

I found the following at
http://www.freedomscientific.com/doccenter/archives/training/JAWSKeystrokes.
htm
but I'm sure it's documented in multiple places.

Layered Keystrokes

Layered keystrokes are keystrokes that require you to first press and
release INSERT+SPACEBAR, and then press a different key to perform a
function in JAWS. Layered keystrokes are easy to use and remember, and they
do not interfere with native keystrokes within applications. Once you enter
a layer, press the QUESTION MARK key to get a list of available keyboard
commands within that layer.

On 07/02/13 14:05, Alex Midence wrote:

No, Jaws does not have this layered command approach.  The keystrokes 
Jaws uses are very similar to the ones used by Orca.  The Insert key 
is the modifier key in most use and alt and control and shift are 
brought in with it for many of the other functions.  If there is a 
keyboard conflict, then it has an "interrupt" key which you hit so 
that it passes the keystroke you are trying to use through to the pc 
w/o Jaws deciding it is an instruction meant for it.  This is really 
buggy.  It frequently winds up crashing Jaws and you have to quit and

restart.  Royal pain.


As for relevance, a good idea is a good idea no matter the source.  If 
Jaws or NVDA or Window eyes does something that makes screen reading 
more effective and something similar can be brought to Orca, I don't 
see why it should not be attempted just because it came from Jaws.  
It's probably the one and only contribution they will make to Open Source

software.



Alex M





-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of 
Fernando Botelho
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 12:22 PM
To: Christopher Chaltain
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Progress update on the "List of" dialogs

Well, if a parallel keyboard command system can be  developed without 
discarding the current and more conventional system, then I would be 
in favor of it. However, given the higher priority bugs and features 
we all want to see resolved and developed, it is probably unrealistic 
to get involved into something like this right now. Although this can 
change if we get more developers involved in Orca work.

About Jaws, I have no idea. Last time I used it was about 6 years ago or

so.

In any case, as you said, it is not relevant.


On 02/07/2013 04:08 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I didn't see this as a disruptive change at all. I assumed virtually 
all Orca keys would remain unchanged. I assumed this would be for new 
key bindings and possibly presenting an alternative and more 
heuristic way of getting to existing commands, without tossing aside 
the existing keyboard shortcuts that is. I know it's not part of the 
decision, but doesn't JAWS also have this layered command approach?

On 07/02/13 10:34, Fernando Botelho wrote:

I love the idea but hate the implications. Lets consider this for a 
major redesign of keyboard shortcuts on Orca and Gnome and all, in 
the medium to long term. To have something like this happening right 
now, and only in Orca will cause a lot of confusion among beginners 
and we will kill any chance of going mainstream.

However, it is a powerful concept. So if there is a way to keep 
things normal for most users and have something like this on the 
side... But still, it is a lot of complexity for just a few advanced 
users, which will be much happier with Emacs anyway.

Just my initial thought.

Fernando



On 02/07/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote:

Hi, all,

I sat down and thought about this last night and wondered if 
something along the lines of an escape sequence might be possible 
to resolve conflicts.
Emacs uses this a lot and it works pretty well there.  You press a

hotkey

that makes the system wait for input which is the real hotkey you 
want.  For
instance:

Orca-l is the escape key:

o-l 1 = list of level 1 headings
o-l 2 = list of level 2 headings.


You get the picture?  People wind up either loving this or hating 
this so, I don't know how feasible this would be for a solution if 
keyboard

conflits

are suspected in future.  It would open up virtually the entire 
panorama of potential hotkey combinations as long as the user 
pressed orca-l before they did the hotkey.


Regards,
Alex M

-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of 
Fernando Botelho
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 6:29 AM
To: Joanmarie Diggs
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Progress update on the "List of" dialogs

Dear Joanie and all, I hope I am not too late in terms of offering 
my

two

cents.

I am all in favor of this solution, lets  use alt shift 
combinations and unbind the few conflicts that exist.

Also, the new features are way too important to leave them unbound.

Control Alt combinations are already used by distributions like 
F123 and Vinux and I am sure many others. Plus they should be 
reserved for the user to play with.

Thanks,

Fernando



On 02/05/2013 10:07 AM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

On 02/05/2013 06:44 AM, Hammer Attila wrote:


Basicaly, your concept with CTRL+ALT+Structural navigation letter 
is full logical and easy to learning.


Thanks. Something that would be equally easy and less 
conflict-prone would be Alt+Shift+Structural navigation letter. In 
fact, that was my first choice, and it nearly worked too. Why I liked

it:


* Orca is already using Alt+Shift+Arrows for table cell navigation
     which is a type of structural navigation.

* Alt+Shift+Letters does not conflict with any system bindings
     (like the gnome-shell lock binding of Ctrl+Alt+L)

* It doesn't conflict with any other Orca commands for the letters.

* The only place it conflicts is with the numbers. In particular,
     Alt + Shift + 1-6 are the commands for getting "Where am I
     information for this bookmark relative to the current pointer
     location".
     
http://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_bookmarks.html

As you will also see if you read those docs, the conflicting 
keybindings are not for the primary bookmark functionality like 
saving bookmarks or going to bookmarks. It's for (what I consider) 
a set of fairly esoteric, not often needed commands.

So I'm going to ask a question and make a proposal:

Question: Who amongst you actually uses the commands specific to 
getting "Where am I information for this bookmark relative to the 
current pointer location".

Proposal:

a. Let's unbind those Where Am I bookmark commands.
b. Let's "steal" Alt+Shift+1-6 for the heading by level dialogs.
c. Let's use Alt+Shift+structural navigation letter for the rest.
      (including Alt+Shift+L for the list of lists) d. Let's use
Alt+Shift+K for the list of links

Thoughts?
--joanie

_______________________________________________
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orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.ht
ml The FAQ is at 
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find 
out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp



_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.htm
l The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp




_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp



_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp



--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to
help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
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