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Re: [orca-list] Progress update on the "List of" dialogs

Well, I stopped using JAWS not long after layered keys were implemented,
but JAWS definitely does have this layered command input method. Note
that this alternative way of entering JAWS commands does not interfere
with the traditional way of using JAWS keyboard commands, as you
describe below.

I found the following at
http://www.freedomscientific.com/doccenter/archives/training/JAWSKeystrokes.htm
but I'm sure it's documented in multiple places.

Layered Keystrokes

Layered keystrokes are keystrokes that require you to first press and
release INSERT+SPACEBAR, and then press a different key to perform a
function in JAWS. Layered keystrokes are easy to use and remember, and
they do not interfere with native keystrokes within applications. Once
you enter a layer, press the QUESTION MARK key to get a list of
available keyboard commands within that layer.

On 07/02/13 14:05, Alex Midence wrote:

No, Jaws does not have this layered command approach.  The keystrokes Jaws
uses are very similar to the ones used by Orca.  The Insert key is the
modifier key in most use and alt and control and shift are brought in with
it for many of the other functions.  If there is a keyboard conflict, then
it has an "interrupt" key which you hit so that it passes the keystroke you
are trying to use through to the pc w/o Jaws deciding it is an instruction
meant for it.  This is really buggy.  It frequently winds up crashing Jaws
and you have to quit and restart.  Royal pain.  

As for relevance, a good idea is a good idea no matter the source.  If Jaws
or NVDA or Window eyes does something that makes screen reading more
effective and something similar can be brought to Orca, I don't see why it
should not be attempted just because it came from Jaws.  It's probably the
one and only contribution they will make to Open Source software.  


Alex M





-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of Fernando
Botelho
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 12:22 PM
To: Christopher Chaltain
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Progress update on the "List of" dialogs

Well, if a parallel keyboard command system can be  developed without
discarding the current and more conventional system, then I would be in
favor of it. However, given the higher priority bugs and features we all
want to see resolved and developed, it is probably unrealistic to get
involved into something like this right now. Although this can change if we
get more developers involved in Orca work.

About Jaws, I have no idea. Last time I used it was about 6 years ago or so.
In any case, as you said, it is not relevant.


On 02/07/2013 04:08 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I didn't see this as a disruptive change at all. I assumed virtually all
Orca keys would remain unchanged. I assumed this would be for new key
bindings and possibly presenting an alternative and more heuristic way
of getting to existing commands, without tossing aside the existing
keyboard shortcuts that is. I know it's not part of the decision, but
doesn't JAWS also have this layered command approach?

On 07/02/13 10:34, Fernando Botelho wrote:

I love the idea but hate the implications. Lets consider this for a
major redesign of keyboard shortcuts on Orca and Gnome and all, in the
medium to long term. To have something like this happening right now,
and only in Orca will cause a lot of confusion among beginners and we
will kill any chance of going mainstream.

However, it is a powerful concept. So if there is a way to keep things
normal for most users and have something like this on the side... But
still, it is a lot of complexity for just a few advanced users, which
will be much happier with Emacs anyway.

Just my initial thought.

Fernando



On 02/07/2013 01:23 PM, Alex Midence wrote:

Hi, all,

I sat down and thought about this last night and wondered if something
along
the lines of an escape sequence might be possible to resolve conflicts.
Emacs uses this a lot and it works pretty well there.  You press a

hotkey

that makes the system wait for input which is the real hotkey you
want.  For
instance:

Orca-l is the escape key:

o-l 1 = list of level 1 headings
o-l 2 = list of level 2 headings.


You get the picture?  People wind up either loving this or hating this
so, I
don't know how feasible this would be for a solution if keyboard

conflits

are suspected in future.  It would open up virtually the entire
panorama of
potential hotkey combinations as long as the user pressed orca-l
before they
did the hotkey.


Regards,
Alex M

-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of
Fernando
Botelho
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 6:29 AM
To: Joanmarie Diggs
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Progress update on the "List of" dialogs

Dear Joanie and all, I hope I am not too late in terms of offering my

two

cents.

I am all in favor of this solution, lets  use alt shift combinations and
unbind the few conflicts that exist.

Also, the new features are way too important to leave them unbound.

Control Alt combinations are already used by distributions like F123 and
Vinux and I am sure many others. Plus they should be reserved for the
user
to play with.

Thanks,

Fernando



On 02/05/2013 10:07 AM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

On 02/05/2013 06:44 AM, Hammer Attila wrote:


Basicaly, your concept with CTRL+ALT+Structural navigation letter is
full logical and easy to learning.


Thanks. Something that would be equally easy and less conflict-prone
would be Alt+Shift+Structural navigation letter. In fact, that was my
first choice, and it nearly worked too. Why I liked it:

* Orca is already using Alt+Shift+Arrows for table cell navigation
     which is a type of structural navigation.

* Alt+Shift+Letters does not conflict with any system bindings
     (like the gnome-shell lock binding of Ctrl+Alt+L)

* It doesn't conflict with any other Orca commands for the letters.

* The only place it conflicts is with the numbers. In particular,
     Alt + Shift + 1-6 are the commands for getting "Where am I
     information for this bookmark relative to the current pointer
     location".
     http://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_bookmarks.html

As you will also see if you read those docs, the conflicting
keybindings are not for the primary bookmark functionality like saving
bookmarks or going to bookmarks. It's for (what I consider) a set of
fairly esoteric, not often needed commands.

So I'm going to ask a question and make a proposal:

Question: Who amongst you actually uses the commands specific to
getting "Where am I information for this bookmark relative to the
current pointer location".

Proposal:

a. Let's unbind those Where Am I bookmark commands.
b. Let's "steal" Alt+Shift+1-6 for the heading by level dialogs.
c. Let's use Alt+Shift+structural navigation letter for the rest.
      (including Alt+Shift+L for the list of lists) d. Let's use
Alt+Shift+K for the list of links

Thoughts?
--joanie

_______________________________________________
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Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp



_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out
how to
help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp




_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp



_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp



-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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