Re: [orca-list] First time trying linux

[Justin Harford <blindstein gmail com>]

Hi

Actually your pidgin experience does not surprise me. I remember when I 
used ubuntu on the vm machine a few years back, I also found that pidgin 
worked very well, and like you, and I'm surprised that it does not this 
time around.

That's right, it's an orca and firefox issue.

I apologize if you thought my statement was implying thath there was 
something wrong with vinux. I was more referring to the general problems 
with ubuntu 10.04, firefox, pidgin and orca, which I was observing. And 
I also certainly would not want to discourage anyone from using vinux, 
especially as someone who has just started using linux, that there 
experience setting up accessibility would not be as laborious as was 
mine five years ago.

Regards
Justin Harford

On 15/01/12 13:42, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> Ah, yes and thanks for the response.
>
> I use Pidgin myself with IRC, Google Chat and Skype, and I don't have
> the problems you mention. I wonder if it's specific to the MSN protocol.
> I also find moving through the contact list to be pretty snappy.
>
> Firefox is slow, but that's an Orca and Firefox issue and not specific
> to Vinux.
>
> You're right, the console is going to be snappier, but it has it's own
> disadvantages. Being able to use both, as you point out, is the way to go!
>
> My concern with your initial statement on the Orca list is that it
> implied there was something wrong with Vinux. I don't think these issues
> are unique to vinux, and I wouldn't characterize them as GUI instability
> issues.
>
> On 15/01/12 15:33, Justin Harford wrote:
> > Hi there
> >
> > You are probably right. I was confusing the people who are using the
> > bleeding edge builds with those who are not. My mistake.
> >
> > I guess whether vinux, the version with ubuntu 10.04, has problems with
> > the GUI is really based on the criteria of the user.
> >
> > The only areas where I really have trouble arer in pidgin and in
> > firefox. In pidgin, I find that the program crashes when I try to carry
> > on chat conversations with my msn contacts. I used to have an msn, aim,
> > yahoo and skype account set up on it. Then I experienced more frequent
> > crashes, and thinking that it was because I had registered so many
> > protocals on it, I got rid of the other accounts, and just started using
> > msn. The crashes are less frequent, but it will crash after about 10 or
> > 15 minutes in a single chat conversation.
> >
> > I think my problems with firefox perhaps have to do with the time thaht
> > it takes to load a webpage, or more specifically, the itme it takes orca
> > to load the necessary buffers, so that it could interact with the page.
> > I would get confused, because it would say that it had finished loading.
> > I took that to mean thath it had finished the webpage and it was ready
> > for me to start browsing, but in reality it is only referring to one
> > component, and if I let it go longer, it will tell me about a number of
> > things thaht it finishes loading, twitter, facebook, google and news
> > services etc. So, I think that if I wait for all that to load before
> > trying to navigate, it should work okay. But, that would mean that I
> > would have to wait a pretty long time, probably about two to five
> > minutes for a single page. Call me picky, but that just seems too long.
> >
> > So, I'll just say that I would like things to be more snappy than they
> > are, and I find such to be the case when I use the console. For example,
> > if I open pidgin and go up and down my list of contacts, there is a
> > delay of about a second from when I push the arrow key, and when it
> > reads the contact. If I do the same thing in finch with speakup, it is
> > much faster.
> >
> > But, as I get more experience using my system, I am finding that it is
> > good to have access to both the console and the gdm, as they act as a
> > sort of check-and-balance system. When one crashes, the other is usually
> > working, so I'm never dead in the water. And that is good.
> >
> > I hope I was able to clarify my views on this subject. Sorry if I misspoke.
> >
> > Regards
> > Justin Harford
> >
> > On 14/01/12 18:40, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> > > What do you find so surprising? I'm not the only one running Vinux
> > > with basically no problems. In fact, I suspect your experience is more
> > > the exception rather than the rule, at least for anyone running Vinux
> > > 3.0.1, the latest LTS release of Vinux, the most tested and supported
> > > version. I also don't recall a lot of other people having GUI
> > > stability issues with Vinux 3.0.1. People have had problems with
> > > audio, especially on the developmental and experimental versions of
> > > Vinux.
> > >
> > > On 14/01/12 17:59, Justin Harford wrote:
> > > > That is certainly surprising. Of course I never head the impression
> > > > that it would be specific to vinux. I honestly did not make much of
> > > > it, since I had seen others describe a similar situation.
> > > >
> > > > On 1/14/12, Christopher Chaltain<chaltain gmail com>   wrote:
> > > > > I spend quite a bit of time on Vinux 3.1 and 3.2.1, and I haven't
> > > > > experienced this GUI instability you're talking about, so it's not
> > > > > intrinsic to Vinux. I hope you reported this to the vinux team to
> > > > > see if
> > > > > they could help figure out what's going on in your situation.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 14/01/12 16:03, Justin Harford wrote:
> > > > > > This discussion reminds me of the first time I tried linux. Ubuntu was
> > > > > > around version 6… it was back around 2007. I downloaded it and
> > > > > > booted up
> > > > > > on a vmware machine. I had to follow the instructions to navigate
> > > > > > through
> > > > > > the first part without speech. I pressed alt f2… typed orca, and was
> > > > > > immediately presented with that command line that I had met in Mac
> > > > > > OS X,
> > > > > > and somewhat feared. The next several days I spent sorting through
> > > > > > online
> > > > > > documentation, trying to install speech dispatcher to make orca more
> > > > > > stable, and trying to get a bleeding edge version of firefox to
> > > > > > replace
> > > > > > the one that came with the distribution, so that I could access the
> > > > > > internet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah I have to admit having it come up speaking from the get go makes
> > > > > > things easier if you are a newby (though vinux did not do this for
> > > > > > me on
> > > > > > my acer), but I have to admit, this introduction through vinux
> > > > > > really has
> > > > > > left me wanting more. The almost absolute instability of the GUI,
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > constantly gets hung up, has sent me running for the console, and
> > > > > > looking
> > > > > > up command line tools to replace the Gnome Panel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's a good motivator… not necessarily a matter of sink or swim
> > > > > > anymore,
> > > > > > but a matter of either swim, or accept a low functioning system.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > Justin Harford
> > > > > > On 14-01-2012, at 1:08, kendell clark wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > you should write a review of vinux. That was the best review of vinux
> > > > > > > i've ever seen, lol. I second that recommendation re vinux. I
> > > > > > > didn't know
> > > > > > > about the qt at-spi stuff but i got equally frustrated with orca in
> > > > > > > unity. Weird issues that are hard to reproduce unless you count
> > > > > > > lots of
> > > > > > > unity segfaults, rhythmbox completely crashes and burns, and  some
> > > > > > > weird
> > > > > > > bugs in unity itself. Vinux 3.2.1 is the way to go, unless you
> > > > > > > want the
> > > > > > > last lts, then it's 3.0.1 currently, but there's a 3.0.2 which is
> > > > > > > supposed to provide newer orca, kernel and newer packages.  It's
> > > > > > > still in
> > > > > > > beta afaik.
> > > > > > > thanks
> > > > > > > Kendell clark
> > > > > > > On 01/13/2012 09:49 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
> > > > > > > > I wouldn't recommend Ubuntu 11.10 to someone who hasn't used
> > > > > > > > Linux with
> > > > > > > > Orca before.  There are way way way too many accessibility holes in
> > > > > > > > Unity right now.  Vinux 3.2 is based on Ubuntu 11.04 and it works
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > fine.  You still get relatively recent packages and you have all
> > > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > accessibility stuff pre-configured for you.  Best of all:  it's
> > > > > > > > not on
> > > > > > > > Unity.  This means that the community of users who could help him
> > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > with any problems he may run into is larger since it's using
> > > > > > > > gnome 2.32
> > > > > > > > which we all know well.  He didn't ask for a distro that was on the
> > > > > > > > bleeding edge.  He said he's new to Linux and wants one he can go
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > to try it out for the first time.  Oneiric is too full of a11y
> > > > > > > > holes and
> > > > > > > > has a totally new approach, Debian requires too much knowledge
> > > > > > > > and would
> > > > > > > > only frustrate him with its advanced requirements and possible
> > > > > > > > hardware
> > > > > > > > hurdles, Fedora is a pain to install, Arch is absolutely too
> > > > > > > > advanced,
> > > > > > > > don't know anything about Suse so, I won't comment on them but,
> > > > > honestly, I can't think of a better distro for someone to try Linux
> > > > > out with
> > > > > all the accessibility bells and whistles than Vinux.  All the work
> > > > > is done
> > > > > for you and the user community actually prides itself on its
> > > > > friendliness
> > > > > towards rank newbies.  I speak from experience.  I started using
> > > > > Vinux in
> > > > > August of 2010 and kept it as my primary distro until about a month
> > > > > and a
> > > > > half ago when I more or less switched over to Debian because I'm
> > > > > doing more
> > > > > server-type stuff now and all the technical publications I'm going
> > > > > through
> > > > > use it to teach their concepts. Anyway, you couldn't ask for a more
> > > > > helpful,
> > > > > patient and friendly bunch of folks than that group and installing
> > > > > Vinux
> > > > > without sighted assistance is seriously easy as it trying out a live
> > > > > CD.
> > > > > There's even a pre-built virtual machine he could try out so he can
> > > > > stay in
> > > > > windows while trying Linux to see if he likes it and wants to pursue
> > > > > it.
> > > > > Oh, and say what you Will about Vinux not keeping up with bleeding edge
> > > > > mainstream software
> > > > >    like Gnome3 or stuff like that but, work is currently underway to get
> > > > > Debian packages created for qt-at-spi's recent full release, the latest
> > > > > ports of at-spi2 and the latest builds of Orca.  People won't have to
> > > > > install them from source if they want them and they will have the most
> > > > > recent versions. I don't know another distro that can boast that,
> > > > > certainly
> > > > > not Ubuntu propper. They're waitinf for their April long term
> > > > > release for
> > > > > all that stuff.  Ther's also talk about a multidesktop testers
> > > > > version of
> > > > > Vinux with pre-installed Unity, Gnome3, KDE, and XFCE so people can
> > > > > try them
> > > > > out now that lots of a11y support is coming along.  By the way, if
> > > > > anyone
> > > > > wants to help out with that effort with testing and, especially with
> > > > > development of that edition, you'll find an appreciative reception.
> > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > Alex M
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, 13 Jan 2012, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Andy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, it is true that Vinux is running behind the other
> > > > > > > > > distributions
> > > > > > > > > when it comes to the latest and greatest versions of packages,
> > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > also know its both stable and new users probably aren't
> > > > > > > > > concerned with
> > > > > > > > > bleeding edge yet. I feel getting a stable and very accessible
> > > > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > of Linux on a new users system takes presidents over weather
> > > > > > > > > they have
> > > > > > > > > the latest version of LibreOffice, Firefox, etc.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For example, just over the last week or so I've seen several
> > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > on how to switch Ubuntu 11.10 over to the 2d version of Unity so
> > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > can get maximum accessibility out of the Unity desktop.  That
> > > > > > > > > might be
> > > > > > > > > fine for someone like myself who has used Ubuntu Linux since
> > > > > > > > > version 6
> > > > > > > > > or so, but I don't think a new user should have to learn to setup
> > > > > > > > > Orca, reconfigure the desktop environment, and learn both Orca and
> > > > > > > > > Linux all at once. Vinux is a nice compromise where the
> > > > > > > > > accessibility
> > > > > > > > > is already setup and someone can learn Orca and Linux without being
> > > > > > > > > forced to know from day one how to get everything up and running
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > accessibility before they learn the OS and screen reader.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To me its a choice of starting someone out at the shallow end of
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > pool, teach them to swim, and work there way to the deep end, or
> > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > throw them head long into the deep end of the pool and tell them to
> > > > > > > > > sink or swim. I can say that no one really likes being tossed
> > > > > > > > > into the
> > > > > > > > > deep end of the pool and being forced to sink or swim from day one.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > HTH
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 1/13/12, Andy B<sonfire11 gmail com>   wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Vinux is so far behind though... And I'm sure many new users have
> > > > > > > > > > found help
> > > > > > > > > > getting orca started in Ubuntu 11.10.
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > > > > > > The manual is at
> > > > > > > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > > > > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > > > > > The manual is at
> > > > > > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> > > > > > > > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > > > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > > > > The manual is at
> > > > > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> > > > > > > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > > > The manual is at
> > > > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> > > > > > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Christopher (CJ)
> > > > > chaltain gmail com
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > > The manual is at
> > > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> > > > > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> > _______________________________________________
> > orca-list mailing list
> > orca-list gnome org
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > The manual is at
> > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp