Re: [Gimp-developer] Search Action dialog feature

[Michael Natterer <mitch gimp org>]

Hi all,

(evil top quoting because I don't really know where to start replying)

I really don't know where the problem is here.

Peter, when we spoke in Berlin last time we discussed tito aka menu
search, the outcome was:

- it's not even visible by default
- it has a shortcut that pops up a simple search entry
- as you enter text, you essentially search all the text
  associated with menu items and their actions
- you select an item, done

It was pretty much our agreement that it's an unobtrusive
additional way to find stuff in our huge menu forest, for
people who have a text based memory rather than one that
easily remembers menu locations. It's also good for people
who prefer to use the keyboard instead of a menu. There are
simply not enough shortcuts, let alone mental capacity to
remember potential shortcuts for all menu items.

It's basically what gnome shell does: enter activity mode,
enter some text, press return, done.

Now this is exactly what the current state of the implementation
already is (alomst), it just needs a little fine tuning.

Sorry but I'm really confused.

Regards,
--Mitch


On Mon, 2014-01-27 at 22:23 +0100, peter sikking wrote:
> Jehan,
>
> please read again what I wrote:
>
> > > let me first of all say this in general about the process we are
> > > doing. at this moment I feel we are still working backwards, i.e.
> > > you are answering to me what the code does.
> > >
> > > we have to work forward, else there will be no progress.
> > >
> > > this means we write down the goal/purpose/vision that you have
> > > for TITo (sorry, internal code name still rocks for discussions).
> > > you make the choices, I just make sure that what we end up with
> > > 1) makes sense in  GIMP context
> > > 2) is internally consistent
> > > 3) is short, sharp and complete
> > >
> > > once we got this goal written down, it is possible to
> > > review the spec to see what is missing and what is getting
> > > in the way of the goal.
>
> now it would be good if we actually start doing that.
>
> > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Michael Natterer <mitch gimp org> wrote:
> > > > > "action" is meant as technical term here. A menu item is a view
> > > > > on an internal action, and they include:
> > > > > - all menu items
> > > > > - all tools
> > > > > - all menu-invokable dialogs
> > > > > - some esoteric stuff which we'd probably filter out to avoid confusion
> > > > Indeed.
> > >
> > > if I read that right it still boils down to that you only want to
> > > search menu items. this needs to be called that way for clarification.
> >
> > No. As said above, actions are *not* just menu items. There are a wide
> > list of commands that Mitch listed above.
>
> aha, that was completely not clear.
>
> > > now if I am wrong, and you do want to be able to search more
> > > like am the ‘actions’ in the dockable dialogs
> > > (example: Brushes dialog->Create a new brush) then you need to
> > > make that clear explicitly.
> >
> > Well, yes. We made it clear by saying we search all actions. :-)
>
> actions are a means to an end. we are in the process of clarifying
> the ‘end’ here, not the means (picking the means comes later).
>
> so now we better get busy.
>
> the word ‘actions’ is now loaded as an internal implementation
> detail. to avoid confusion, it cannot be used in a goal definition.
>
> you could take the wide-ranging option and say:
>
> ‘search all that users can perform and change in GIMP’
>
> or
>
> get specific and make a complete list (‘types’, not ‘instances’)
> of what you want to be searched by TITo, for instance:
>
> - all menu items
> - everything that can be performed in dockable dialogs
> - all tool options
> - all operations tools can perform on the canvas
> - all settings in preferences and co.
>
> it needs to be in language that gets the point across
> exactly, without the reader being required to be a
> GIMP developer.
>
> > > it is better now to concentrate on _all_ the reasons you
> > > want this to be useful for GIMP users.
> > >
> > > now is the time for you to decide whether ‘when one knows they
> > > exist but can't find anymore’ is the one and only reason TITo
> > > is valuable/useful for GIMP users. if there is more, you have
> > > to clarify that mow.
> >
> > No it is not the "only" reason. This was more an example, thus an
> > error on my side to cite here. The real goal is «searching and
> > running» actions. And this by itself contains all the reasons I think
> > it is useful for. Now "searching" can imply a lot of sub-reasons.
>
> yes, and we need to get these reasons on the table, because
> without them there is no point in introducing the tool (and
> certainly not claim a keyboard shortcut).
>
> > The
> > «I know this action exists (because I used it before, for instance)
> > and I want to find it again» would indeed be a typical one.
>
> and here is where some QA form my side has to start:
>
> > Another
> > would be «I don't know GIMP by heart, but I know graphics editing, and
> > there are usually blur effects. So instead of going through endless
> > menus, I open the search and type "blur" and search through the 3/4
> > results I get».
>
> (first of all I think all blur examples have to be banned. there
> is nothing to search about blur, it is under Filters->blur, end
> of story. if it is not clear that it is to be found in the Filters
> menu, or as a toolbox tool, then this user needs an introductory
> course in GIMP, which can (today) only be delivered by a web browser
> or a book.)
>
> anyway, GIMP is a designed to be a tool for masters, or for
> users on their path to become a master (beginners, intermediates).
> any other use is not considered when designing the UI.
>
> so if someone comes to GIMP (s)he is either a master in another
> graphics app, or not. in the latter case (s)he can be considered
> and helped, as a beginner or intermediate GIMP user.
>
> from this there are 2 conclusions:
>
> - we really need to talk about how you envision TITo being useful for
>  GIMP masters, beginners and intermediates; most of this will
>  involve learning to use GIMP;
> - that leaves only masters of other programs coming to GIMP to
>  consider in this discussion.
>
> since they are masters in another programme the will hate not
> being all-powerful in GIMP. so they will want to master GIMP
> as fast as they can (think of it as grokking).
>
> - for all the terms that GIMP has in common with other graphics
>  programs (blur, dodge, fill, paint) the value of searching
>  for them will be nearly zero, they are placed where they belong.
> - the terms that GIMP does not have in common with all other
>  graphics programs need a synonym list, a mapping between the
>  non-GIMP terms in other programs to the GIMP term;
> - if the search does not give a match to the non-GIMP term
>  this master user entered, this user will be angry within seconds
>  (‘useless!’)
> - a lot of these operations are not one-shot, they either fit in
>  a GIMP way of doing things or have their own set of parameters;
>  to grok this, invoking it or pointing out where it lives in the
>  UI is not enough; it needs a short, sharp manual page;
>
> - to summarise the above, TITo has to be competitive with
>  googling "GIMP <user’s search term>"
>
> ...or else be ‘useless!’
>
>     --ps
>
>         founder + principal interaction architect
>             man + machine interface works
>
>         http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture
>
>
>
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