Re: [Gimp-developer] Bring back normal handling of other file formats

[Tobias Oelgarte <tobias oelgarte googlemail com>]

Am 21.06.2012 12:40, schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine:
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Karl Günter Wünsch wrote:
>
> > > > BTW: I asked a few of my friends (who are less into image editing but
> > > > well capable of using a computer and who at most only knew the GIMP by
> > > > name) what export was supposed to mean and they all responded that it
> > > > was the use of external resources to store the image (FB, Flickr,
> > > > Dropbox)...
> > > And that proves exactly what? :)
> > IMHO it only shows that the split of the function is artificial in
> > nature and that the chosen command name for one of the most used
> > function (no matter what you do, you can't upload an xcf for
> > presentation on the web nor can you send in an xcf to a printer nor can
> > you do anything worthwhile with an xcf outside the very limited world of
> > the GIMP - so saving under a different format is a must for any user and
> > export isn't the first command name that comes to mind of anyone if
> > searching for this option) is ambiguous at best and progressively
> > misleading in todays environment...
> What you are saying is:
>
> 1. We made a clear separation between saving and exporting...
> 2... where saving means preserving all project data for internal use
> 3... and exporting means saving a new file that is typically a JPEG or
> PNG for external use.
> 4. Your friends actually understand that separation on a user level.
> 5. Which makes us wrong.
>
> In other words, you've just given us an example that supports our
> vision, while claiming that it contradicts it. That's one hell of an
> IMHO from you :)
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
I fully understand your reasoning, but the terms are rather ambiguous. 
Lets take a look at the "commands" available after creating a new image. 
(Terms might differ slightly since I'm translating back from the German 
translation)

* Save
* Save as...
* Save Copy as...
* Export to (Disabled)
* Export...

1. "Save" is exactly the same as "Save as..." because the location isn't 
known - yet. But "Export to" is disabled. Is there a good reason why it 
is that way? I would say: Disable or enable both commands in this situation.

2. "Save as..." is ambiguous because the wording alone could mean that 
you want to a) save the current project under a different name. b) save 
the current image (what you see) under a different name and in another 
format.

Option a) makes perfect sense for the user if he works on a bigger 
project. But often he only wants to create a simple file or make a small 
change to an existing file and then "save" (export) it directly without 
seeing it as a project (xcf).

3. I find the menu in this situation a bit confusing, especially due to 
the disabled items. "Save" and "Save as..." have eye catching icons, 
while "Export" is widely separated and "hidden": Way below and behind 
disabled commands, directly followed by "Create Template..." (???) and 
then overshadowed by the printing commands with eye catching icons 
again. In other words: If you don't think about it and search for it you 
will quickly miss it and use "save" instead, finding yourself in a 
dialog where you can't do what you wanted to.

If this new way of project/file managing is the way to go then there 
should be some effort to make this functionality more clear for users. 
The last weak i introduced some younger people to GIMP 2.8 and i had to 
explain them how "saving" is supposed to work. The first question i got 
was: "How do i save as JPEG?". With GIMP 2.6 i didn't need to explain 
that part.

I usually work on bigger projects and I'm quite happy that it is this 
way now. Just recently i saved a project in MyPaint as PNG and lost all 
my layers in progress. The old version still existed, but the new work 
was doomed after closing MyPaint. I guess that is exactly what you 
wanted to address with this change. It is great for bigger projects, but 
its bad for the casual things when you not think about it as "The Project".

I would somehow propose that Gimp would actually differentiate between 
projects and casual image editing, if that makes sense and isn't even 
more confusing.

Tobias Oelgarte