Re: [Gimp-developer] Bring back normal handling of other file formats

Am 21.06.2012 12:40, schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine:
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Karl Günter Wünsch wrote:

BTW: I asked a few of my friends (who are less into image editing but
well capable of using a computer and who at most only knew the GIMP by
name) what export was supposed to mean and they all responded that it
was the use of external resources to store the image (FB, Flickr,
And that proves exactly what? :)
IMHO it only shows that the split of the function is artificial in
nature and that the chosen command name for one of the most used
function (no matter what you do, you can't upload an xcf for
presentation on the web nor can you send in an xcf to a printer nor can
you do anything worthwhile with an xcf outside the very limited world of
the GIMP - so saving under a different format is a must for any user and
export isn't the first command name that comes to mind of anyone if
searching for this option) is ambiguous at best and progressively
misleading in todays environment...
What you are saying is:

1. We made a clear separation between saving and exporting...
2... where saving means preserving all project data for internal use
3... and exporting means saving a new file that is typically a JPEG or
PNG for external use.
4. Your friends actually understand that separation on a user level.
5. Which makes us wrong.

In other words, you've just given us an example that supports our
vision, while claiming that it contradicts it. That's one hell of an
IMHO from you :)

Alexandre Prokoudine

I fully understand your reasoning, but the terms are rather ambiguous. Lets take a look at the "commands" available after creating a new image. (Terms might differ slightly since I'm translating back from the German translation)

* Save
* Save as...
* Save Copy as...
* Export to (Disabled)
* Export...

1. "Save" is exactly the same as "Save as..." because the location isn't known - yet. But "Export to" is disabled. Is there a good reason why it is that way? I would say: Disable or enable both commands in this situation.

2. "Save as..." is ambiguous because the wording alone could mean that you want to a) save the current project under a different name. b) save the current image (what you see) under a different name and in another format.

Option a) makes perfect sense for the user if he works on a bigger project. But often he only wants to create a simple file or make a small change to an existing file and then "save" (export) it directly without seeing it as a project (xcf).

3. I find the menu in this situation a bit confusing, especially due to the disabled items. "Save" and "Save as..." have eye catching icons, while "Export" is widely separated and "hidden": Way below and behind disabled commands, directly followed by "Create Template..." (???) and then overshadowed by the printing commands with eye catching icons again. In other words: If you don't think about it and search for it you will quickly miss it and use "save" instead, finding yourself in a dialog where you can't do what you wanted to.

If this new way of project/file managing is the way to go then there should be some effort to make this functionality more clear for users. The last weak i introduced some younger people to GIMP 2.8 and i had to explain them how "saving" is supposed to work. The first question i got was: "How do i save as JPEG?". With GIMP 2.6 i didn't need to explain that part.

I usually work on bigger projects and I'm quite happy that it is this way now. Just recently i saved a project in MyPaint as PNG and lost all my layers in progress. The old version still existed, but the new work was doomed after closing MyPaint. I guess that is exactly what you wanted to address with this change. It is great for bigger projects, but its bad for the casual things when you not think about it as "The Project".

I would somehow propose that Gimp would actually differentiate between projects and casual image editing, if that makes sense and isn't even more confusing.

Tobias Oelgarte

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