Re: Still need a hint for undecorated windows

[Philipp Lohmann - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg <Philipp Lohmann Sun COM>]

Sasha Vasko wrote:
> Philipp Lohmann - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg wrote:
> Window manager does not implement an idea of its own. it simply provides 

Of course it does. Else there would be only one window manager, not a
kwin, metacity and and an fvwm.

>  user with the way to have a consistent interface throughout the desktop.
> Window management specs never impose limitations on what decorations 
> should be drawn and how. With more then a couple dozen window managers 
> cropped up in the recent years and hundreds of themes available for each 
> of them, user can have the most outlandish interfaces implemented.

Actually a user can't, just a theme developer. But that's probably
beside the point.

> But what makes it different from apps doing it on their own is :
> 1) Consistency - all windows are treated consistently throughtout the 
> desktop, unless user (not an app developer!) desires otherwise.

And why not an application developer ? If a window manager could
actually decide what a window should look like there would not be a need
for hints at all. OF COURSE the application developer has to have a say
in UI.

> 2) Specialization  - By not having to worry about window management 
> interface app developers can avoid certain (rather large at it) amount 
> of work, which they will never be able to do well anyway. ( For example 
> what good is minimize/shade button inside application if window manager 
> arranges windows in tiles or tabs ?).

That's the theory. The gruesome reality always looks differently, more
along the lines you suggested yourself for xmms: give a hint to the WM
to have an undecorated window, the WM does not honor the hint, xmms gets
a decorated window and then should in your opinion react by displaying a
different UI ?

> If you really want to try yourself at window manager's interface design 
> - write a window manager, not an app.
>
> Window manager's don't try to impose ideas about how contents of a 
> window should be rendered, right? So why would an application try to 
> impose its ideas on window manager ?

I'd say by requiring an application to change its UI depending on
whether the WM actually honors a request indeed seems to indicate a WM
that imposes the contents of the application window.

Let's not make this into a flamewar. I guess i will not convince you
anyway. But, please, have a little place in your heart for us
application developers that occasionally actually need the window
manager to do what they need. In the end what good is a window manager
without applications ?

Kind regards, pl

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