Re: [Vala] Removal of Mono

[Jiří Zárevúcky <zarevucky jiri gmail com>]

Dne 26. červen 2009 14:41 Sam Liddicott <sam liddicott com> napsal(a):
> > "I'm not advocating the vala be able to compile C# code"
> > -- You're suggesting it. Otherwise you would mention that possibility at all.
>
> I mentioned it in order to avoid that discussion (fail fail!). I wanted
> to avoid the conversation being about a C# mode for Vala or the
> corruption of Vala in order to bring in features which are adequately
> dealt with already in C# or other langauges.

Yeah, my mistake. I see the intention now.

> > Along with that, Vala and C# are different languages with different
> > principles and different target audiences. People wanting to switch
> > just for the purpose of not using Mono logically must be either stupid
> > or mono-haters.
>
> or politically wary; don't forget the background of the whole
> free-software movement.

I didn't forget. The entire GNU project was created as a replacement
for proprietary Unix-like operating systems. Much like Mono is a
replacement for proprietary .NET platform.
To prove that political wariness doesn't accomplish much, you can just
read the history of SCO lawsuits. :) You'd have to be wary of
everything everywhere.

> Of course the politically wary are often called
> stupid, but I prefer the word wary. It's a way of managing perceived
> risk, and if people doing that will switch to Vala then I think it is
> good news on this mailing list.
>
> I am personally wary of mono because I am wary of MS who have a history
> of scheming. However the issue that stimulated my post is the number of
> other people who feel the same way and who do advocate the removal of
> mono (hence the post title) - and that I would rather they moved to vala
> than to C/C++ if they are going to move at all. Hence "keep a weather eye"

True. MS does have a history of not very honorable opponent. On the
other hand, one of the strengths of free software community is it's
capability to regenerate from such attacks. If some part of Mono is
deemed dangerous to have, it will get replaced. In the end, MS would
lose by it, as it would make Mono and .NET incompatible. It's
important to understand that Mono doesn't have any relation to MS
(aside from the technology). Even if it was to become an entirely
different, incompatible runtime, it would still be a powerful
platform.

> > Anyway. With the kind of things those anti-mono guys are writing
> > lately, I may have switched into an "anti-anti-mono" mode a bit too
> > early. Sorry about that. Just shows how these people spread hate among
> > peaceful guys like me. :)
>
> heh - looks like I was reading the same stuff as you. It is true that
> people often exchange their opinion with the point of convergence of
> similar opinion; e.g. replace wariness of mono with being anti-mono from
> a political stance; or replace wariness of Novell with being anti-mono
> from an anti-Novell stance. I'm just trying to help Vala get some
> benefit from this atmosphere of disquiet.

The very same wariness may apply to C++, Java, even GNU itself. The
problem is that some people confuse healthy wariness with irrational
microsoftophobia and that hurts people like Mono developers, who have
only good intentions. Some even succumb to personal insults addressed
to anyone who does like Mono, which is sad.
By saying "Hey, don't like Mono? Vala is the platform of choice for
you!", we would be just feeding the hatred. That's why I don't approve
such propagation.

> > Regarding your original post, there is really nothing to "keep a
> > weather eye open" related to Mono. You can just look forward to a
> > stable version and see it mature.
>
> No doubt this is right as far as mono goes; I meant in relation to a
> migration from mono, perhaps in relation to the gnome project.
>
> I believe that if Vala was around before mono, mono would not exist. I
> do prefer vala vastly to mono.

Vala does have it's particular benefits, but saying the Mono wouldn't
exist with Vala around is naive. As I said, they have different
principles. I don't believe Vala could fill the void Mono filled so
nicely.

> I think it needs better memory
> management, but it has been tied to gnome's memory management and I
> think it has incorporated that very well.

Here the principles come. Vala is based on reference-counted GObjects
and there is no way you could do a better memory management without
sacrificing the very benefits that make Vala so special. If someone
needs a garbage collection with statically typed language, Mono is the
platform he seeks.

> So I said a lot more that I was trying to say, having clarified things
> through the discussion I was trying to avoid... thanks for speaking up,
> there is no offence taken, I think it was worthwhile.

Sure was. I'm glad we worked out the initial misunderstanding.
And I hope my (finally constructive) arguments in this post will be
helpful, too. :)