Re: [Vala] Removal of Mono

["Sam Liddicott" <sam liddicott com>]

* Jiří Zárevúcky wrote, On 26/06/09 13:10:
> Ah, ok, I'm sorry for my impulsive response. I may have implied a
> thing or two from following parts:
>   
no problem
> Subject: Removal of Mono
> -- What the hell?
>   

true enough; it was the theme for a set of posts I'd been reading about
Gnome and vala, with a timeline 2 years or more and it got me thinking.

> "It may be prudent to keep a weather eye open for the removal of mono on
> the horizon."
> -- As with the subject, this implies you want Mono removed.
>   

I see how this confusion occurs. I was recognizing that many people do
want it removed; intimating that it might be an advantage if we (vala)
were prepared.

I see that some-one is re-writing tomboy in C++ as gnote - why they
aren't using Vala is puzzling - probably they never heard of vala.

The effort of a re-write and the effort of naked gnome in C/C++ seem
like a waste of effort. Surely gnome vala is better than gnome C++, and
surely vala is closer in syntax and language feature to C# than to C++;
and this is perhaps evident in that gnote still lacks many tomboy
features. The C# is a template for the C++, and if the C# were
mechanistically converted to vala, the results merely lacking a few
fixups it may be quicker to get the conversion with all the features.

> "Sure, we don't want Vala spoiling by mono"
> -- This, on the other hand, implies you consider Mono as something bad
> that would spoil Vala.
>   

I was trying to pre-empt what Juergbi would say (or has said in response
to some of my patches!) and make clear that the suggestion was not to
have vala compile C#

> "I'm not advocating the vala be able to compile C# code"
> -- You're suggesting it. Otherwise you would mention that possibility at all.
>
>   

I mentioned it in order to avoid that discussion (fail fail!). I wanted
to avoid the conversation being about a C# mode for Vala or the
corruption of Vala in order to bring in features which are adequately
dealt with already in C# or other langauges.

> Along with that, Vala and C# are different languages with different
> principles and different target audiences. People wanting to switch
> just for the purpose of not using Mono logically must be either stupid
> or mono-haters.
>
>   

or politically wary; don't forget the background of the whole
free-software movement. Of course the politically wary are often called
stupid, but I prefer the word wary. It's a way of managing perceived
risk, and if people doing that will switch to Vala then I think it is
good news on this mailing list.

I am personally wary of mono because I am wary of MS who have a history
of scheming. However the issue that stimulated my post is the number of
other people who feel the same way and who do advocate the removal of
mono (hence the post title) - and that I would rather they moved to vala
than to C/C++ if they are going to move at all. Hence "keep a weather eye"

> Anyway. With the kind of things those anti-mono guys are writing
> lately, I may have switched into an "anti-anti-mono" mode a bit too
> early. Sorry about that. Just shows how these people spread hate among
> peaceful guys like me. :)
>   

heh - looks like I was reading the same stuff as you. It is true that
people often exchange their opinion with the point of convergence of
similar opinion; e.g. replace wariness of mono with being anti-mono from
a political stance; or replace wariness of Novell with being anti-mono
from an anti-Novell stance. I'm just trying to help Vala get some
benefit from this atmosphere of disquiet.

> Regarding your original post, there is really nothing to "keep a
> weather eye open" related to Mono. You can just look forward to a
> stable version and see it mature.
>   

No doubt this is right as far as mono goes; I meant in relation to a
migration from mono, perhaps in relation to the gnome project.

I believe that if Vala was around before mono, mono would not exist. I
do prefer vala vastly to mono. I think it needs better memory
management, but it has been tied to gnome's memory management and I
think it has incorporated that very well.

So I said a lot more that I was trying to say, having clarified things
through the discussion I was trying to avoid... thanks for speaking up,
there is no offence taken, I think it was worthwhile.

regards,

Sam

> Dne 26. červen 2009 13:48 Sam Liddicott <sam liddicott com> napsal(a):
>   
> > * Jiří Zárevúcky wrote, On 26/06/09 12:28:
> >     
> > > Ah, another one of the anti-mono guys. Sigh...
> > >
> > >       
> > Ah, another one of those guys who sees anti-mono guys everywhere.
> >
> >     
> > > Let me tell you, that from the sole principle of how Vala works, it
> > > will never be possible to convert C# code in a mechanistic fashion.
> > >
> > >       
> > Of course it will, it just won't compile or run.
> >
> >     
> > > You could maybe try creating some sort of automatic converter, which
> > > wouldn't work anyway, as it would result in a lot of bugs, inferior
> > > performance and (in better case) memory leaks.
> > >       
> > You could try this too. I think I'll wait to see if there is a need.
> >
> >     
> > > Just the possibility of
> > > "Vala being able to compile C# code" is so ridiculous I wonder who
> > > came up with that.
> > >
> > >       
> > I've never heard the idea suggested, and I didn't suggest it. It seems
> > you are the one who came up with it.
> >
> > I wish you had read my message. In it I acknowledged some of these points.
> >
> > I think you read the message you thought I had written.
> >
> > But there will be some language features of C# which are not within the
> > vala philosphy or language direction but which might be supported and
> > thus making some migration easier; I merely suggest keeping an open eye
> > for these.
> >
> > I don't expect any mechanistically converted C# to "compile and work"
> > with Vala, but it could be valid vala, with the parts that need
> > re-working annotated.
> >
> >     
> > > Anyway. Why hating Mono?
> > >       
> > I don't hate mono (although I prefer Vala). I wrote a nice mono
> > application for controlling my USB experimenter board.
> >
> >     
> > > Mono is a great software platform and people
> > > will use it no matter what MS-haters say about it.
> > >       
> > Good for them. (And me, I'm one of them).
> >
> >     
> > > Get over it people.
> > >
> > >       
> > Get over what? I don't understand your attitude in this response!
> >
> > I merely advocated keeping a weather eye open in case we could help a
> > migration from mono. I don't advocate that we actually DO anything.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >     
> > > 2009/6/26 Sam Liddicott <sam liddicott com>:
> > >
> > >       
> > > > It may be prudent to keep a weather eye open for the removal of mono on
> > > > the horizon.
> > > >
> > > > Vala is excellent, and I prefer it to mono; however it may become
> > > > pricelessly important that mono code can be converted to vala in a
> > > > mechanistic fashion.
> > > > I'm talking about language features, not library dependencies and linkages.
> > > >
> > > > Sure, we don't want Vala spoiling by mono, and I'm not advocating the
> > > > vala be able to compile C# code; I'm not advocating anything specific...
> > > >
> > > > ..just to keep a weather eye open...
> > > >
> > > > [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/keep_a_weather_eye_open]
> > > >
> > > > Sam
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Vala-list mailing list
> > > > Vala-list gnome org
> > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/vala-list
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >         
> >