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Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress in accessibility

Let me add some clarifications when it comes to custom Braille table...
There will be space characters in the file, but brltty driver will
show them as just a single cell. When the caret gets focus on this
very character it will be expanded to 4 spaces on the Braille display.
As for Linux suitabiity for blind users or developers, I must say that
it depends what you are doing, for pure coding is very demanding and I
would not go down this path. System administration or devops or even
security, at least in my oppinion are easier to handle.
I am thinking about Linux for I got recently very much into
ergonomics, optimizing for comfort in everyday taks. Last but not
least, bought the Kinesis Advantage 2 ergonomic keyboard to take care
of slowly developing RSI.
Technology-related areas are very vast and wide - doing customer
research, analyzing feedback or even researching ways to make
improvements in how software is developed at companies are just a
beginning. While there seems to be run on accessibility in recent
months the implementation seems to be out of touch with reality...

Just a few ideas... Best... Pawel

On 27/12/2020, chrys <chrys linux-a11y org> wrote:

Howdy,

thanks for that. very interesting.


** Python's indentation can eat cells on a Braille display very
quickly for they come in packs of 4 space characters per indent,

i wonder if this is not scriptable. instead of
<space><space><space><space> just print the numeric "4". tabs are very
uncommon for indentation. the python documentation recomment space as well:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#tabs-or-spaces
i wonder if there is an editor with this capability out there.


And then thre is much more than editing, namely: debugging, launching
the thing you are coding or convenient way to compare file
differences...

sounds like linux is perfect for blind people. all this could be done in
shell. in fact my debugging tool of choice is print() and sleep() lol, i
never used a python debugger, to compare files there is the "diff"
command what gives an idea. but i see merging huge code bases is no fun
for a blind person at all...

cheers chrys

Am 27.12.20 um 23:02 schrieb Pawel Urbanski:

VS Code or for fokes very much into pure open source Codium works
really well... As a matter of fact - Orca's support is very good out
of the box. Speaking from experience of creating an NVDA add-on to
improve some aspects of ergonomics when coding.
Since NVDA is written in Python, just like Orca I figured out a few
tricks to make coding easier:
** Having a Braille display is in a way a must for more than
occasional script here and there,
** Python's indentation can eat cells on a Braille display very
quickly for they come in packs of 4 space characters per indent,
** If you are not the purist and go for tabs for indentation things
look much better,
** A workaround I am considering now is to extend Louis Braille table
definition to replace a sequence of 4 spaces into a single tab
character,
** It should allow for standard space indents and not eat Braille
display realestate like hungry kid eats candies,
** Will expand the abbriviated tab symbol to 4 spaces when focused.

And then thre is much more than editing, namely: debugging, launching
the thing you are coding or convenient way to compare file
differences...

All the best...

On 27/12/2020, chrys <chrys linux-a11y org> wrote:

Howdy,


I wish you hadn't mixed quotes from different authors without
attribution
.  Mine being the second one is out of context as well.

oh sorry, maybe i mixed some stuff from the historys lol.



Please go to python.org, download the latest Windows installer

well, ok windows is a different world :), but this is a linux
screenreader list. so i assume you are using linux. last time when i
installed something on windows i was asked to install an browser bar as
well lol. maybe the package maintainer of the windows installer package
thinks this IDE is a must have.
well but even on windows there might be an accessible texteditor or
shell? cmd? powershell? sorry i m not an windows user, nor  i use a
screen reader. might sound stupid but this is a serious question. i just
cannot imagine that there is no way to write a textfile and bring it to
the interpreter.


Yes, python is quite command-line friendly but it isn't heavily
emphasized
any more outside of the UNIX community.

yea right, on windows .net is the dominated thing those days. python,
bash, ruby and so on sadly are very rare there.

cheers chrys

Am 27.12.20 um 19:37 schrieb Dan Miner via orca-list:

I wish you hadn't mixed quotes from different authors without
attribution
.  Mine being the second one is out of context as well.

Generally, I agree with everything you said.  Also our perspectives of
"what is accessible" is different due to the methods and tools each
individual uses.  Using TTS methods on C-like languages can be quite
problematic but a braille user might find nothing amiss.  I realize my
problems generally revolve around using TTS as my sole means but
braille
is difficult to learn and gain strong fluency in later years of life.
Plus,, a hugely expensive device for a 40+ cell braille display does
not
help.

Now, your assertion about GUI not being standard in python.  Please go
to
python.org, download the latest Windows installer and install all
components.  You'll find IDLE, a TkInter based IDE and console.  Then,
follow the tutorial pointers on the thank you page.  This is the
inaccessibility I am referring to.

Yes, python is quite command-line friendly but it isn't heavily
emphasized
any more outside of the UNIX community.  I see so many posts about
blind
and VI people wanting to learn python but can't quite figure out how to
beat that first barrier of python promoting methods of learning which
aren't accessible out of the box.

So to be clear, my main gripe is with Tk and the general educational
model
of learning python these days.  I definitely can do something about Tk
which I intend to do so over the coming months.

   Dan



-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list <orca-list-bounces gnome org> On Behalf Of chrys
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 8:24 AM
To: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress
in
accessibility

Howdy,


Some of what python builds isn't even compatible with gtk let alone
the command line user environment in Linux.  You might try installing
and running pyching and see if you can get that speaking.

well this makes really no sense... python is a programming language not
a
toolkit.
it like saying my pizza is not compatible to salami. a developer can
use
GTK for creating a graphical user interface, but its not mandatory. the
developer can even use wx or QT. it the default widgets of the toolkit
doesn't implement accessibility its the fault of the toolkit, not of an
programming language.

on step more,  pyching looks like its using a custom set of widgets, so
those are just handmade by the developer itself ( not using a standard
widget of an toolkit) in this case the developer also need to implement
the required accessibility interfaces (in whatever language it is
written)

but all this belongs to _all_ programming languages not only to python


Just
imagine if the standard python GUI tools were accessible across its
supported platforms (e.g., IDLE).

python doesn't ship any GUI tools. it only ships the python interpreter
with some default librarys to do stuff like math or time operations,
this
will give an interactive mode, but this is command line only. if python
ships any GUI tools then those are packed by your distributor.
its also not mandatory to have a UI to do any Python related work. If i
write some scripts for my server i use VIM via ssh. so no GUI
interaction
at all.


cheers chrys

Am 27.12.20 um 09:07 schrieb Jude DaShiell:

Some of what python builds isn't even compatible with gtk let alone
the command line user environment in Linux.  You might try installing
and running pyching and see if you can get that speaking.



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