Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress in accessibility

[chrys <chrys linux-a11y org>]

Howdy,

thanks for that. very interesting.

> ** Python's indentation can eat cells on a Braille display very
> quickly for they come in packs of 4 space characters per indent,
i wonder if this is not scriptable. instead of 
<space><space><space><space> just print the numeric "4". tabs are very 
uncommon for indentation. the python documentation recomment space as well:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#tabs-or-spaces
i wonder if there is an editor with this capability out there.

> And then thre is much more than editing, namely: debugging, launching
> the thing you are coding or convenient way to compare file
> differences...
sounds like linux is perfect for blind people. all this could be done in 
shell. in fact my debugging tool of choice is print() and sleep() lol, i 
never used a python debugger, to compare files there is the "diff" 
command what gives an idea. but i see merging huge code bases is no fun 
for a blind person at all...

cheers chrys

Am 27.12.20 um 23:02 schrieb Pawel Urbanski:
> VS Code or for fokes very much into pure open source Codium works
> really well... As a matter of fact - Orca's support is very good out
> of the box. Speaking from experience of creating an NVDA add-on to
> improve some aspects of ergonomics when coding.
> Since NVDA is written in Python, just like Orca I figured out a few
> tricks to make coding easier:
> ** Having a Braille display is in a way a must for more than
> occasional script here and there,
> ** Python's indentation can eat cells on a Braille display very
> quickly for they come in packs of 4 space characters per indent,
> ** If you are not the purist and go for tabs for indentation things
> look much better,
> ** A workaround I am considering now is to extend Louis Braille table
> definition to replace a sequence of 4 spaces into a single tab
> character,
> ** It should allow for standard space indents and not eat Braille
> display realestate like hungry kid eats candies,
> ** Will expand the abbriviated tab symbol to 4 spaces when focused.
>
> And then thre is much more than editing, namely: debugging, launching
> the thing you are coding or convenient way to compare file
> differences...
>
> All the best...
>
> On 27/12/2020, chrys <chrys linux-a11y org> wrote:
> > Howdy,
> >
> > > I wish you hadn't mixed quotes from different authors without attribution
> > > .  Mine being the second one is out of context as well.
> > oh sorry, maybe i mixed some stuff from the historys lol.
> >
> >
> > > Please go to python.org, download the latest Windows installer
> > well, ok windows is a different world :), but this is a linux
> > screenreader list. so i assume you are using linux. last time when i
> > installed something on windows i was asked to install an browser bar as
> > well lol. maybe the package maintainer of the windows installer package
> > thinks this IDE is a must have.
> > well but even on windows there might be an accessible texteditor or
> > shell? cmd? powershell? sorry i m not an windows user, nor  i use a
> > screen reader. might sound stupid but this is a serious question. i just
> > cannot imagine that there is no way to write a textfile and bring it to
> > the interpreter.
> >
> > > Yes, python is quite command-line friendly but it isn't heavily emphasized
> > > any more outside of the UNIX community.
> > yea right, on windows .net is the dominated thing those days. python,
> > bash, ruby and so on sadly are very rare there.
> >
> > cheers chrys
> >
> > Am 27.12.20 um 19:37 schrieb Dan Miner via orca-list:
> > > I wish you hadn't mixed quotes from different authors without attribution
> > > .  Mine being the second one is out of context as well.
> > >
> > > Generally, I agree with everything you said.  Also our perspectives of
> > > "what is accessible" is different due to the methods and tools each
> > > individual uses.  Using TTS methods on C-like languages can be quite
> > > problematic but a braille user might find nothing amiss.  I realize my
> > > problems generally revolve around using TTS as my sole means but braille
> > > is difficult to learn and gain strong fluency in later years of life.
> > > Plus,, a hugely expensive device for a 40+ cell braille display does not
> > > help.
> > >
> > > Now, your assertion about GUI not being standard in python.  Please go to
> > > python.org, download the latest Windows installer and install all
> > > components.  You'll find IDLE, a TkInter based IDE and console.  Then,
> > > follow the tutorial pointers on the thank you page.  This is the
> > > inaccessibility I am referring to.
> > >
> > > Yes, python is quite command-line friendly but it isn't heavily emphasized
> > > any more outside of the UNIX community.  I see so many posts about blind
> > > and VI people wanting to learn python but can't quite figure out how to
> > > beat that first barrier of python promoting methods of learning which
> > > aren't accessible out of the box.
> > >
> > > So to be clear, my main gripe is with Tk and the general educational model
> > > of learning python these days.  I definitely can do something about Tk
> > > which I intend to do so over the coming months.
> > >
> > >         Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: orca-list <orca-list-bounces gnome org> On Behalf Of chrys
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 8:24 AM
> > > To: orca-list gnome org
> > > Subject: Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress in
> > > accessibility
> > >
> > > Howdy,
> > >
> > > > Some of what python builds isn't even compatible with gtk let alone
> > > > the command line user environment in Linux.  You might try installing
> > > > and running pyching and see if you can get that speaking.
> > > well this makes really no sense... python is a programming language not a
> > > toolkit.
> > > it like saying my pizza is not compatible to salami. a developer can use
> > > GTK for creating a graphical user interface, but its not mandatory. the
> > > developer can even use wx or QT. it the default widgets of the toolkit
> > > doesn't implement accessibility its the fault of the toolkit, not of an
> > > programming language.
> > >
> > > on step more,  pyching looks like its using a custom set of widgets, so
> > > those are just handmade by the developer itself ( not using a standard
> > > widget of an toolkit) in this case the developer also need to implement
> > > the required accessibility interfaces (in whatever language it is written)
> > >
> > > but all this belongs to _all_ programming languages not only to python
> > >
> > > > Just
> > > > imagine if the standard python GUI tools were accessible across its
> > > > supported platforms (e.g., IDLE).
> > > python doesn't ship any GUI tools. it only ships the python interpreter
> > > with some default librarys to do stuff like math or time operations, this
> > > will give an interactive mode, but this is command line only. if python
> > > ships any GUI tools then those are packed by your distributor.
> > > its also not mandatory to have a UI to do any Python related work. If i
> > > write some scripts for my server i use VIM via ssh. so no GUI interaction
> > > at all.
> > >
> > >
> > > cheers chrys
> > >
> > > Am 27.12.20 um 09:07 schrieb Jude DaShiell:
> > > > Some of what python builds isn't even compatible with gtk let alone
> > > > the command line user environment in Linux.  You might try installing
> > > > and running pyching and see if you can get that speaking.
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > >
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> > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> >
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> > GNOME Universal Access guide:
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