Re: [Usability] gedit's Save A Copy

[Alan Horkan <horkana maths tcd ie>]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Karim Nassar wrote:

> Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:38:45 -0700
> From: Karim Nassar <Karim Nassar acm org>
> To: Alan Horkan <horkana maths tcd ie>
> Cc: usability gnome org
> Subject: Re: [Usability] gedit's Save A Copy
>
> On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 17:11 +0000, Alan Horkan wrote:
> > > > Save As A New File And Continue In The Old File
> > > > is more appropriate, which is why I think it's confusing.
> > >
> > > Since the concept of saving seems to be one that becomes confusing
> > > here, perhaps it should be left out?
> >
> > I really do not think this should be changed and should be left as "Save a
> > Copy".  The HIG mentiones "Save a Copy" and there is concensus on how it
> > is supposed to work.  The Gedit version of "Save a Copy" works how we
> > expect it to work.
> >
> > Chaning the label to something else increases inconsisantency and
> > potential confusion for no significant benefit but bad for the Gnome
> > Desktop as a whole.
>
> I don't see how changing the label (gnome wide) would be inconsistent.

If you had said that my response might have been different but it seemed
very much like you wanted to change it in the context of Gedit rather than
the Gnome desktop as a whole (which is not even very pracitical because we
haven't used stock items the same change would need to be made in many
places).

Propose the change against the HIG and I'll look at it again in a
completely different light.

> I can tell you that I never understood what the point of "save a copy"
> was until this thread. I even thought I found a bug in the gimp
> revolving around (my lack of understanding) this concept:
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156761

I came at it from another direction entirely.

I was quite happy with the terms Import and Export and I always figured
that if you haven't tried it out and do not know what it is for it is not
important.  I have always valued consistency very highly even if the
defacto standards are not always that well thought out I'd rather make the
same old mistakes than whole new ones.  (Druids anyone?) I was never
convinced that relabelling Import and Export as "Open a Copy"  and "Save a
Copy" really helped anyone but rather served to confuse those who
recognised Import and Export.  Calum Benson confused me even further
trying to make the distinction that Import and Export are generally for
lossey formats that that an application does not support natively.

> "Save" means something to everyone who has used a computer: commit my
> changes "permanently", don't close the document. "Save a copy" is a
> variation on that which I thought I knew, but the extra words *add
> confusion* because now I don't know what aspects of "save" are being
> performed. "Copy to" tells me exactly what is going to happen, and I
> find clearer because it isn't corrupted with my preconceived notions of
> what "save" does.

An interesting arguement, if enough people agree with you then the change
might happen.  The question I would ask is will doing it differently be
significantly better and enough of an improvement to justify the change?
Yes, I'm conservative.  No, I'm not the one who needs to be convinced,
I'm just one opinion so my objection wont stop the change if others
believe it is really worth doing.

> Further, I believe your argument that "the HIG says it" is moot, because
> the HIG is an organic document. I think what is being suggested is that
> the label "Save a Copy" is confusing, and perhaps we should consider
> another label and update the HIG appropriately.

Do not use quotes like that, you make it look like that was what I said!
I am well aware that the HIG is flexible and not written in stone, a
detail I have sometimes had great difficulty explaining to some
duhvelopers who take it completely at face value without being willing to
consider any of the concepts behind it.

I very deliberate said the HIG _mentions_ it because although it is not
immutable it has value and is worth considering and I would not be so
quick to dismiss it.  Changes to the HIG do not have a rapid effect, it
has a certain amount of inertia and there is not much we can do about it.
The real power of the Human Interface Guidelines is how they enable normal
users to express to developers their desire to have a consistant user
friendly Desktop and to say it with some kind of authority.

Sorry, I guess I'm getting a little offtopic.  Unless someone has a better
idea or more to add to the discussion perhaps it would be best to put your
suggested label change in a bug report against the HIG and see if it is
acceptable?

Sincerely

Alan Horkan
http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/