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Re: [orca-list] Accessibility broken under Wayland Fedora 31

Howdy List,
IMO QT5 is very accessible thanks to Frederik's work in that area. he is also very friendly and helps out where ever he can. He is employed at QT company what makes him able to fix some of the QT related a11y bugs in his work time. Thanks for this Frederik! I know that accessibility works on QT with Wayland. but i as i still use X i don't know the exact state here. as some functionality is missing in Wayland i assume most of the issues are the same.
Well, Plasma needs some work. But the situation is not as worse as most guys think. but there are some huge blocker issues. 

to name some out of my mind:
- the default main menu does not set the focus properly. what makes orca not be able to react to focus change events. this could be worked around by use one of both alternative menues what are shipped by default (those work out for basic stuff quite well). 
- no way to focus the tray
- WIFI list is not keyboard navigate able
Since Plasma 5.17 the functionality to control the mouse with keyboard was restored and works on Wayland. 

i tracked down the complete list off issues i found in KDEs phabricator:
https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
there is also a very recent talk about unify keyboard navigation all over the desktop to improve keyboard handling.
my plan is to offer an a11y sprint for plasma as soon as i find time to organize it. i also hope for an GSoC student :). 
lets see...
my job locks me currently a lot, after that period i try to force my work on that area again. IMO Plasma is a wonderful and hyper flexible alternative desktop. i use it exclusive since almost a year thanks to gnomes "lets remove everything useful" effort. (i say this as an 15 year hardcore gnome user...) 
I also found an open minded and friendly community at KDE.
any help is welcome, i can guide what to do and for some parts also how to do. Most stuff is done in QT Quick. its very similar to java script and CSS. no recompile needed to see the results. very handy and easy. 

cheers chrys

Am 04.11.19 um 18:24 schrieb Jean-Philippe MENGUAL via orca-list:

Hi Devin,
That is not completely so simple. First because KDE requires very a high work, Chrys could tell us his point of view, but in my understanding, making it accessible implies a lot of work. Nexcxt and in particular, we will always need GTK. Thunderbird, Firefox use it. Other important apps too. So while switching to KDE is an option, we need to ensure GTK keeps a minimal accessibility. Finally, I am not certain that Qt fixes all the Wayland issus, so it is important to examine what Wayland lacks too. All the more as we see that all the team GTK is not exactly on the same line. Beyond a feeling "they are closed" from some of them, the project manager and one major contributor just needs to understand, to see real human nusers. Hence a meeting at FOSDEM and next to this event. To establish a more human dialog, to make the most opened persons understand all the consequence of things. So everything is not lost yet. Just we need noise, to prepare human meeting, and we need to keep all options opened to maintain our hope. 

regards


regards

Le 04/11/2019 à 18:15, Devin Prater a écrit :
If QT and KDE will be of better accommodation, then I believe we should move there, instead of the GTK folks who still think bling people do not use computers. If we stay with them, they will continue to be dead weight to us.
On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL via orca-list <orca-list gnome org> wrote: 

Hi,
I speak under Joanie's, Samuel's and Alex's control. I try staying in the public assetions and rely on facts only.
1. No, Wayland is not accessible yet. The keyboard events and other things are not supported. See https://wiki.freedesktop.org/www/Accessibility/Wayland/
2. No, GTK4 as toolkit will not support this too. They do not want to handle accessibility. They consider it should be handled by the window compositor. See https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/merge_requests/1120#note_634772 and https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/issues/1739
They consider a11y as an ugly implementation and want to get rid of it. They think no one use Orca. And do not imagine for which usages. They consider blind users should use other OS. 

3. Consequences:
- any feedback on Gitlab about this bugs is useful, provided that it is constructive. We need to show them we exist, have the right to use free software and GUIs, and we are not so few. And even if GUI is not the best from a theorical point of view, it is the social will of beginners and necessary to accomplish some actions. - Before or after FOSDEM, Hypra and GNOME get involved in a hackfest to establish a roadmap: what should be done, where (Wayland or the toolkits), how to fund, etc. Thanks to this IRL meeting, I hope we will show what a blind user does, why he is legitimate, what is technically necessary, and who can get involved. According to this meeting issue, we might help Qt instead of GTK. I hope this meting will be a good beginning and not a break. 

Recommendations:
- prefer the bug reports above instead of here, it will be more useful.
- do not accept to hear "a blind user should use a CLI". Right in theory, but no for beginners and medium end-user. - Stay constructive: it will help us in the future dialog. But you can explain the law, the international rights. 

Regards


Le 04/11/2019 à 15:53, Michał Zegan a écrit :

So, I use that excuse to ask, what is the current status of wayland
accessibility? I mean there are problems in f31 as said, but before f31 for example? Things like flat review mouse clicking and stuff? I didn't 
track it and bugs were moved to gitlab so no clue.

W dniu 04.11.2019 o 15:50, Joanmarie Diggs pisze:

Hi Pavel.

I cannot do anything about that within Orca. Sorry!

--joanie

On 11/4/19 3:08 AM, Pavel Vlček wrote:

Hi all,

Accessibility is broken under Fedora 31 / default session - Wayland.
What is not speaking?

- gparted

- Anaconda installer

- all aps with sudo and sudo -E
when I switch to xorg, all works perfectly as expected, but switching 
session to xorg requires to set password with passwd, because gdm
doesn't show select session button without password.

Thanks,

Pavel


_______________________________________________
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Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html 

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html 


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
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