Re: [orca-list] sound through pulse audio running as root may soon be fixed

[chrys87 web de]

Thats exactly what i wrote ;). 
> > A screen reader should be _able_ to run as but not explicit depending on it.
In other words you schould be able but you schouldnt need to run as root..

Am Do. Mai 12 14:37:50 2016 GMT+0300 schrieb Janina Sajka:
> But, this is an unfair analogy.
>
> You are correct that running certain apps is root is a bad idea from the
> security perspective--but the OS doesn't prevent you from being foolish.
> If you want to run Firefox as root, you'll find you can.
>
> What we're talking about here is the actual inability to run the SR as
> root. It won't work. You're being forced, and that's offensive, imo.
>
>
> chrys87 writes:
> > Howdy,
> > Maybe its a kind of fundamental discussion that really runs out of topic.
> > I think its a nogo in terms of stability and security.
> > A screen reader should be _able_ to run as but not explicit depending on it.
> > I would say the reasons are the same as you dont run your Office, Mail
> > client, Browser, Http Server or PDF viewer as root.
> > there is running many unverified and untrusted information processing in a
> > screenreader. For sure that was often a problem in the X if i remember (and
> > is for sure the reason why the way is there for rootless X). I would say if
> > i can crash an I-Phone via sms (no flame, i just know of an existing exploit
> > for this a year ago or so), why you shouldn't be able to execute code from a
> > buggy screenreader ;).
> > In case of speakup for example would be able to kill the entire system if it
> > crashes, based on its nature of beeing a kernel module (could mean not have
> > to). if for example orca fails i just restart it via script and hotkey.
> > that's my insignificant thoughts....
> >
> > cheers chrys
> >
> > Am 10.05.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Janina Sajka:
> > > Al Sten-Clanton writes:
> > > > I guess this is wandering more off-topic, but why should a screen reader
> > > > never run as root?  Thanks!
> > > I think there are excellent reasons to run as root, especially the case
> > > where you need to work with a machine that won't boot.
> > >
> > > The most accessible setup I ever had was a DEC Alphastation 200, a very
> > > early 64bit processor. I had one in the days of Linux 2.4 kernels
> > >
> > > On this machine I had full access to the bios by simply disconnecting my
> > > video display and connecting my Braille Lite to the DB9 serial port on
> > > the machine's backplane.
> > >
> > > Once Linux started, I had Speakup, of course.
> > >
> > > Well, in those days, Orca wasn't even a gleam in Marc Mulcahy's eye. But
> > > the low level stuff was beautifully accessible. I've been hpeful uefi
> > > might get us back to that kind of access, but I've seen no joy on that
> > > yet.
> > >
> > > Janina
> > >
> > > > Al
> > > >
> > > > On 05/09/2016 08:57 PM, kendell clark wrote:
> > > > > hi
> > > > >
> > > > > Definitely agree about the windows user. My main motivation for trying
> > > > > to fix it is because since I develop sonar, I try to make it easy for a
> > > > > blind user to use it, no matter what they might want to do. That
> > > > > includes console speech. But when the speakup people don't want to fix
> > > > > their own program because they don't like pulse audio, the pulse audio
> > > > > people say it's not their bug and the brltty people insist it is a pulse
> > > > > bug ... it's a circle I'm caught in. yes, they're definitely people.
> > > > > Just like you're a person who sometimes uses windows and or apple. I try
> > > > > to accomodate everyone by putting software in my distro to do whatever
> > > > > it is you might want to do. Taking you as an example, I have the best
> > > > > and most accessible software I could find to manage apple devices. I
> > > > > don't know how good it is because I don't own one, but it's there. I
> > > > > happen to agree with kyle and luke. Screen reader should never run as
> > > > > root. Speakup and brltty could easily get what they need without running
> > > > > as root. But it's going to take changes in several components to pull it
> > > > > off, and I hope it succeeds. So I'm excited and hope luke can fix these
> > > > > issues so that a console screen reader will work as easily as orca does
> > > > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > Kendell Clark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/9/2016 7:37 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> > > > > > I don't get too bent out of shape over what some mythical Windows user
> > > > > > might think, and this definitely isn't a motivation for me to ask for
> > > > > > a change in Linux.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess open source developers are also people too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 09/05/16 19:32, kendell clark wrote:
> > > > > > > hi
> > > > > > > I pointed that out because any windows user seems to take any linux
> > > > > > > issue as a sign that it's not worth using, and their own platform is.
> > > > > > > They don't have any idea what speakup is, what a text console is, all
> > > > > > > they hear is that something in linux doesn't work and presumably it does
> > > > > > > work in windows. I am not a windows expert. I've used it, but I don't
> > > > > > > believe it has a text console. Mac I know little about, it might. If it
> > > > > > > does, I don't think the builtin screen reader can read it. Android ... I
> > > > > > > really don't know. It has a terminal, I know that but I don't know if
> > > > > > > there are ways to get around it to the actual shell underneath and if
> > > > > > > it's accessible. It is definitely embarrassing, not being able to fix an
> > > > > > > issue people suffer from daily. Not many people use console screen
> > > > > > > readers but they should be able to without giving up functionality or
> > > > > > > jumping through a ton of hoops to do so. They can't in windows because
> > > > > > > it doesn't have a text console. They can in linux if they know enough
> > > > > > > about how the underlying system works to make it work, and that's
> > > > > > > unacceptable. I didn't have any luck getting the pulse audio people to
> > > > > > > care but as a side effect, I did get luke to agree to start the ball
> > > > > > > rolling in the systemd camp. He thinks all of this stuff can get fixed
> > > > > > > by making speakup and brltty run in userspace, under logind, which will
> > > > > > > control the permissions of the files they need  access to in order to
> > > > > > > work. This sounds a lot better than them running as root all the time. I
> > > > > > > don't have any idea how long this will take but not having to deal with
> > > > > > > "its your bug." "no it's your bug" is a huge weight off my shoulders.
> > > > > > > Sometimes open source developers act like children.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > Kendell Clark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> > > > > > > > This message below confuses me, since it was Kendell who said "The
> > > > > > > > reason I'm making such a big deal of this is because this has been an
> > > > > > > > embarrassing issue for all of us Linux accessibility advocates being
> > > > > > > > unable to fix an issue any windows user would immediately point out as
> > > > > > > > a show stopper even if they had no idea what speakup was or what it
> > > > > > > > did." I'm not sure why Kendell would write a strongly worded message
> > > > > > > > in opposition to someone who was agreeing with him. I remembered
> > > > > > > > Kendell's statement since I was going to say something, but I chose
> > > > > > > > not to since Kyle's statement was so much better than anything I would
> > > > > > > > have said. IMHO, I just don't think we should worry so much about what
> > > > > > > > Windows users will think. Let's make Linux accessibility the best it
> > > > > > > > can be regardless of the bar set by Windows.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 09/05/16 17:46, kendell clark wrote:
> > > > > > > > > hi
> > > > > > > > > I have to agree with kyle. I was going to send a rather strongly
> > > > > > > > > worded
> > > > > > > > > message to this effect, but I'll settle for this. Windows hasn't had a
> > > > > > > > > text console since the windows 98 days, and when that was indeed the
> > > > > > > > > case microsoft made no effort to make such accessible. Users were
> > > > > > > > > expected to purchase, at considerable expense, access products like
> > > > > > > > > jaws
> > > > > > > > > for dos, asap, etc. If ms had a builtin screenreader, I can't remember
> > > > > > > > > if it first showed up in win 95 or 2000, it would only read the
> > > > > > > > > graphical interface, and even then only certain programs. Android
> > > > > > > > > might,
> > > > > > > > > I'm not sure, have a concept of a text console, but if so it's likely
> > > > > > > > > limited to terminal apps running inside android, which the builtin
> > > > > > > > > screen reader will read. IOS and OSX? Don't make me laugh. They have
> > > > > > > > > command line support, of course, but only through terminal, which is
> > > > > > > > > builtin to the mac and only runs from within osx. I think you might be
> > > > > > > > > able to get to single user mode in a mac, I'm not positive because I
> > > > > > > > > don't know nearly as much about mac as I do about linux, but voiceOver
> > > > > > > > > won't read it, of that I'm sure. This is most definitely a problem
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > should be fixed, but coming on hear and saying that windows users
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > look down on us for not being able to do it when they can't either
> > > > > > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > > going to accomplish anything. Linux is not, and has never been
> > > > > > > > > perfect,
> > > > > > > > > and anyone who leads people to think otherwise is a fool. It has it's
> > > > > > > > > issues like any other OS, yes, including those vaunted windows and mac
> > > > > > > > > operating systems. If I ever lead anyone to think linux is perfect,
> > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > I've been a fool as well, I am not excluding myself. It's definitely
> > > > > > > > > possible, sometimes I get a bit overzealous in my preaching, lol.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > Kendell Clark
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Kyle wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > ChromeOS, Android, iOS, MacOS and Windows users would find having
> > > > > > > > > > trouble running text only consoles at the same time as the graphical
> > > > > > > > > > desktop to be unacceptable? I'm sorry, but although this is indeed a
> > > > > > > > > > problem that needs fixing, the idea that users of other operating
> > > > > > > > > > systems that know nothing of a text only console find it an
> > > > > > > > > > unacceptable lack of accessibility in Linux when it doesn't work as
> > > > > > > > > > expected is simply preposterous at best. Please note that I didn't
> > > > > > > > > > say
> > > > > > > > > > it isn't a problem for some, but it's nothing a Windows, MacOS,
> > > > > > > > > > ChromeOS Android or iOS user would even know about, let alone care
> > > > > > > > > > about. It's only system administrators and shell users who would even
> > > > > > > > > > know that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Of all these
> > > > > > > > > > other mentioned operating systems, ChromeOS is the only one I am
> > > > > > > > > > aware
> > > > > > > > > > of that even has an available text only console, and it has no spoken
> > > > > > > > > > output whatsoever. So in attempting to identify the problem that
> > > > > > > > > > needs
> > > > > > > > > > to be addressed, we should never resort to false or baseless claims
> > > > > > > > > > regarding the state of Linux accessibility or how users of other
> > > > > > > > > > operating systems would feel upon using a Linux desktop for the first
> > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sent from the new power generation
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > orca-list mailing list
> > orca-list gnome org
> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
>
> -- 
>
> Janina Sajka, Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
>                       sip:janina asterisk rednote net
>               Email:  janina rednote net
>
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:     http://a11y.org
>
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures      http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
>
> _______________________________________________
> orca-list mailing list
> orca-list gnome org
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

-- 
Gesendet von meinem Jolla