Re: [orca-list] sound through pulse audio running as root may soon be fixed

[Christopher Chaltain <chaltain gmail com>]

I don't get too bent out of shape over what some mythical Windows user 
might think, and this definitely isn't a motivation for me to ask for a 
change in Linux.

I guess open source developers are also people too.

On 09/05/16 19:32, kendell clark wrote:
> hi
> I pointed that out because any windows user seems to take any linux
> issue as a sign that it's not worth using, and their own platform is.
> They don't have any idea what speakup is, what a text console is, all
> they hear is that something in linux doesn't work and presumably it does
> work in windows. I am not a windows expert. I've used it, but I don't
> believe it has a text console. Mac I know little about, it might. If it
> does, I don't think the builtin screen reader can read it. Android ... I
> really don't know. It has a terminal, I know that but I don't know if
> there are ways to get around it to the actual shell underneath and if
> it's accessible. It is definitely embarrassing, not being able to fix an
> issue people suffer from daily. Not many people use console screen
> readers but they should be able to without giving up functionality or
> jumping through a ton of hoops to do so. They can't in windows because
> it doesn't have a text console. They can in linux if they know enough
> about how the underlying system works to make it work, and that's
> unacceptable. I didn't have any luck getting the pulse audio people to
> care but as a side effect, I did get luke to agree to start the ball
> rolling in the systemd camp. He thinks all of this stuff can get fixed
> by making speakup and brltty run in userspace, under logind, which will
> control the permissions of the files they need  access to in order to
> work. This sounds a lot better than them running as root all the time. I
> don't have any idea how long this will take but not having to deal with
> "its your bug." "no it's your bug" is a huge weight off my shoulders.
> Sometimes open source developers act like children.
>
> Thanks
> Kendell Clark
>
>
> Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> > This message below confuses me, since it was Kendell who said "The
> > reason I'm making such a big deal of this is because this has been an
> > embarrassing issue for all of us Linux accessibility advocates being
> > unable to fix an issue any windows user would immediately point out as
> > a show stopper even if they had no idea what speakup was or what it
> > did." I'm not sure why Kendell would write a strongly worded message
> > in opposition to someone who was agreeing with him. I remembered
> > Kendell's statement since I was going to say something, but I chose
> > not to since Kyle's statement was so much better than anything I would
> > have said. IMHO, I just don't think we should worry so much about what
> > Windows users will think. Let's make Linux accessibility the best it
> > can be regardless of the bar set by Windows.
> >
> > On 09/05/16 17:46, kendell clark wrote:
> > > hi
> > > I have to agree with kyle. I was going to send a rather strongly worded
> > > message to this effect, but I'll settle for this. Windows hasn't had a
> > > text console since the windows 98 days, and when that was indeed the
> > > case microsoft made no effort to make such accessible. Users were
> > > expected to purchase, at considerable expense, access products like jaws
> > > for dos, asap, etc. If ms had a builtin screenreader, I can't remember
> > > if it first showed up in win 95 or 2000, it would only read the
> > > graphical interface, and even then only certain programs. Android might,
> > > I'm not sure, have a concept of a text console, but if so it's likely
> > > limited to terminal apps running inside android, which the builtin
> > > screen reader will read. IOS and OSX? Don't make me laugh. They have
> > > command line support, of course, but only through terminal, which is
> > > builtin to the mac and only runs from within osx. I think you might be
> > > able to get to single user mode in a mac, I'm not positive because I
> > > don't know nearly as much about mac as I do about linux, but voiceOver
> > > won't read it, of that I'm sure. This is most definitely a problem that
> > > should be fixed, but coming on hear and saying that windows users would
> > > look down on us for not being able to do it when they can't either isn't
> > > going to accomplish anything. Linux is not, and has never been perfect,
> > > and anyone who leads people to think otherwise is a fool. It has it's
> > > issues like any other OS, yes, including those vaunted windows and mac
> > > operating systems. If I ever lead anyone to think linux is perfect, than
> > > I've been a fool as well, I am not excluding myself. It's definitely
> > > possible, sometimes I get a bit overzealous in my preaching, lol.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Kendell Clark
> > >
> > >
> > > Kyle wrote:
> > > > ChromeOS, Android, iOS, MacOS and Windows users would find having
> > > > trouble running text only consoles at the same time as the graphical
> > > > desktop to be unacceptable? I'm sorry, but although this is indeed a
> > > > problem that needs fixing, the idea that users of other operating
> > > > systems that know nothing of a text only console find it an
> > > > unacceptable lack of accessibility in Linux when it doesn't work as
> > > > expected is simply preposterous at best. Please note that I didn't say
> > > > it isn't a problem for some, but it's nothing a Windows, MacOS,
> > > > ChromeOS Android or iOS user would even know about, let alone care
> > > > about. It's only system administrators and shell users who would even
> > > > know that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Of all these
> > > > other mentioned operating systems, ChromeOS is the only one I am aware
> > > > of that even has an available text only console, and it has no spoken
> > > > output whatsoever. So in attempting to identify the problem that needs
> > > > to be addressed, we should never resort to false or baseless claims
> > > > regarding the state of Linux accessibility or how users of other
> > > > operating systems would feel upon using a Linux desktop for the first
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from the new power generation
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > orca-list mailing list
> > > orca-list gnome org
> > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail