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Re: [orca-list] GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization

I'm not for rehab dollars to be directly spent in donations for all the reasons you've mentioned and probably 
some others, but do think that gov does a 
roll to play supporting open source, and specifically improving universal accessability. Some of this should 
be cross platform and some suporting 
os specific projects like nvda and orca. 
While I do not trust the government, anyone's gov to be in charge of what gets developed and what does not, 
nor do I trust a free market that is 
actually non free in several senses to decide these things. 
I do not know what percentage of Freedom Scientific's market is selling to U.S. voc-rehab, nor which other 
countries  buy how much software from them, 
but I doubt FS would be what it is with out gov dollars and pounds and who knows what other currencies. 
I am not saying that jaws is not the best tool for some users, nor that it's not the only tool that will work 
for some of those folks. 
I do think it sad that many people can not even install a quality free product due to a limited understanding 
of accessiblity/usability realities and 
overlly rigid security policies. 
If there was some kind of stamp of approval given to NVDA so that folks who could be more productive having 
it along side of or even in place of jaws on 
a company computer....
But this is OT, and I was not going to write more on this here, and apoligize in advance/will not continue 
this conversation.
There's far to much here to cover in one or three or 10 more emails, and I have counter arguments to half of 
my own arguments that I think are at least 
partially valid.
  

-- 
     B.H.
   Registerd Linux User 521886


  John Heim wrote:
Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 10:10:36AM -0500


Very few jaws users would consider the money the government spent on it to
be a waste of money.  I know this is a list for orca users but we need to
recognize that ours are not the only opinions out there.

There is no mechanism by which a rehab agency can donate money to support
open source solutions. And even if there was, it would be controversial even
in the blind community. Are you folks aware that at one time, the National
Federation Of the Blind asked Microsoft not to improve narrator to the point
where it would compete with jaws? They worried that if Microsoft made
narrater good enough to compete with jaws but not quite good enough to allow
you to do your job, then blind people would really be in trouble. The point
is, can you imagine what the reaction would be if DVR agencies started
pushing orca?

On a somewhat related point, there's no orca foundation, is there? I'd be
willing to handle that, set up a 501c3, apply for grants, etc.

On 09/09/2015 04:24 PM, Victor Lawrence wrote:

As I have mentioned before, I have received a refreshable Braille
display and other equipment from my state vocational rehabilitation
agency for my job and I am not a blind entitlement baby.  Sadly,
vocational rehabilitation agencies are often shortsighted and
inefficient.  That's why I agree that these agencies should help fund
the development and distribution of free open-source software and
other low-cost solutions for the blind and other disabled.

Before anyone gets mad at me for criticizing VR agencies, even I
realize that there are many good VR counsellors who are often
overwhelmed by the number of clients and the bureaucracy they face.

VictorOn 9/4/15, kk <krmane gmail com> wrote:

I feel in a country like mine(India ) there is hardly such a thing cald
entitlement baby.
And I think to much spoon feeding from government not just spoils the
beneficiaries but the entire community.
I agree that instead of giving costly Jaws and other stuff and waisting
tax payer's money, active eferts should be made to promote development
of technologies, of the people for the people by the people.
This keeps the dignity intact and a sence of confidence amongst the
people around about blind community also changes.
Living on charity, weather government or private is not always correct.
Why can't blind community be made productive not just for their own
selves but also for the rest of their nations and societies?
And actually asking why can't is also wrong, because they actually are.
So if there is indeed a concept of government entitlement babies it is
really wrong and dangerous.
Happy hacking.
Krishnakant.

On Saturday 05 September 2015 06:22 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I agree with John on this one. I have a refreshable braille display
that I acquired myself, and to think that someone considers me a blind
entitlement baby based on just this one fact is offensive. On the
other hand, do I really care what someone who would so
indiscriminately and unapologetically use such a term on a public list
thinks of me?

On 09/04/2015 02:06 PM, Kyle wrote:

According to John Heim:
# You should apologize for using the term "blind government
# entitlement babies". That's offensive.

Um, no. Are you a blind government entitlement baby? If not, then you
have no reason to be offended, as I wasn't talking to you. Blind
government entitlement babies are some sorry people, and are offensive
to me, not to mention how offensive the companies are who can get away
with charging an arm and a leg and a couple of teeth because the
entitlement babies piss and moan until the government pays the high
price of their screen readers and notetakers. These same people are
the
ones who want Jaws, Kerzweil , their Windows computer and a braille
display handed to them instead of putting just a little bit of their
money, maybe even as little as 5 or 10 dollars, into supporting free
and open source screen readers and operating systems, as well as the
development of open source hardware, which could help them a lot more.
Or if they have no money, they could be putting whatever time and
skill
they have into making improvements to the software, reporting bugs,
making reasonable suggestions, coding, etc, improving things for
everyone including themselves.

Of course the flip side to this is the fact that the government, along
with the blindy companies and the so-called advocacy organizations
make
all this happen, as they continually pay the high prices for inferior
hardware and software and tell us we need it, rather than putting
money
and people behind development and improvement of the freedom hardware
and software that would help everyone a lot more. And yes, in case you
were wondering, I was once such an entitlement baby. The government
even paid for a braille display for my job, which they told me I
needed, which cost at that time, roughly 18 years ago, about the same
price as a car. Just a few years later, when I wanted to go to school
for computer science, the government agency told me I didn't need an
$800 laptop, even though I already had the screen reader, but that I
could have a $1500 braille 'n speak instead, . I also was once a
member
of one of those blindy organizations, and was even the president of my
local chapter. I saw much of this kind of thing there. My state
chapter
had nearly 2 million dollars tucked away in a bank, didn't put so much
as a penny toward helping anyone for real. They only gave 2 people
scholarships each year and bought them a copy of some high priced
software to put on the computer that they bought for them, all the
while reinforcing the idea that we all need this mess to do our jobs
and to make our way through the cruel cruel world. And after all this,
we still have a 75 to 80% rate of unemployment, even with all the
fancy
schmancy stuff that costs too much. So I do know how the system works,
and yes, this is offensive to me as well. This is why I help people
out
who want a better way of doing things. This is why I support hardware
and software freedom by promoting it, building it and helping people
use it.
Sent from my pufferfish
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Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


-- 
John Heim
john johnheim com

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
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