Re: [orca-list] linux versus windows was Re: GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization

[Christopher Chaltain <chaltain gmail com>]

The only thing I can assume is that a post like John's is just trolling 
for a reaction. It's so full of inaccurate statements and biased 
opinions, it's hard to know where to start.

Any post that starts off with a statement that something is far easier 
than something else is obviously loaded with bias and generalizations. A 
statement like this only makes sense after you discuss what you're 
trying to do with each platform.

I have a choice at home to use Linux with Orca or Windows with NVDA or 
JAWS. I use Linux and Orca because I think it's easier and not because 
it's free or open source.

I pop a Vinux CD in the drive, and Linux comes up talking with Orca. I'm 
able to install Linux myself with no hot keys or sighted help. I've 
never been able to do this with Windows.

When I want to install a program, I type a command like
$ sudo apt-get install google-chrome
which I think is much easier than finding an installer on the web, 
downloading it, launching it and then working through the installer.

When I want to use my network printer, I just go into the print option 
and select the printer from the list. I don't have to look for aCD to 
install a device driver.

I get to the launch bar with alt+f1 instead of hitting control+escape 
folowed by escape and a tab like I do in Windows. I get to the dash by 
hitting alt+f2 in Linux or by hitting control+escape in Windows. I know 
there's a start menu in Windows,but I never use it.

At no point do I have to learn about Pulse, Gnome, Mate or whatever to 
start using Linux. I've never compiled Orca from scratch. Firefox has 
only broken on me once after an upgrade. It's much more likely iTunes 
will break on an update in Windows then it is Firefox will break on an 
upgrade in Linux.

I'm sure there are some tasks that are easier to do in Windows then 
Linux, but I'm also sure the converse is also true. Windows may be 
easier for what John wants to do, but it isn't for me. There are things 
I can do in Windows that I can't do in Linux, such as run iTuens, but 
again, the converse is also true, such as running Emacspeak.

On 09/03/2015 02:55 PM, kendell clark wrote:
> hi
> I can second this. Windows is not easier than linux most of the time, at
> least in my experience. Speaking purely from the point of view of a n
> average user, simply installing windows, from scratch, on a formatted
> machine, and installing all the needed software to begin work usually
> takes several times longer in windows than linux. Does this mean linux
> is better? In my opinion, yes, but technically no. Windows has just as
> many complexities under the hood as linux does, many different APIs for
> sound, graphics, session management, etc. Windows has only one login
> screen, not several dozen, so it's easier to make accessibility work
> with it. That being said, if you use a modern desktop like gnome or
> mate, you simply press the same keystroke you used to set up
> accessibility, that being alt+windows+s and the screen reader speaks.
> The one thing that linux could do better is to make orca able to copy
> your prefs over to the desktop or at least, able to use the orca prefs
> from those screens to change the preferences, which I can't do from gdm.
> On windows, when I change the config of nvda running on the windows log
> on screen, I'm unable to save it because windows is apparently running
> in some sort of "secure" mode. Statements like "windows is just easier."
> is subjective. I happen to think linux is easier most often. Am I right
> all the time? no. My wife uses windows, and as such I am the tech
> support guy. Having actually tried keeping windows running on a machine
> continuously I'm well aware of how hard windows can be to use if you
> have to troubleshoot it. Those gui wizards for diagnosis only stretch so
> far.
> Thanks
> Kendell clark
>
>
> On 09/03/2015 10:59 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:
> > Maybe John has broader experience than I, but these days I certainly
> > don't think Windows is "way easier" to use than Linux.  You may or may
> > not have to learn about the several components metioned, depending on
> > what you want or need to do.  (I know virtually nothing about most of
> > those items, but for many things I use Linux in a similar way to using
> > Windows.) If you want to be a Windows power user, I think you have to do
> > much the same things as you do to become a Linux power user.  My wife is
> > getting regular training from rehab in using Windows, and particularly
> > Word, and we have a Windows 7 guide that is eight or so soft-covered
> > Braille volumes.  I therefore doubt that learning Windows and the
> > software running under it is necessarily easier than doing likewise with
> > Linux.
> >
> > Yes, there are some things I can do or do better on the Windows box.  I
> > do others better on the Linux box, and, given my passion for software
> > freedom, I often prefer to using the Linux machine even if it's a
> > toss-up.  I like the sound quality of Eloquence better than that of
> > Espeak, but Espeak was easier to get used to than I'd expected, and I'll
> > live with that one because of the freedom.
> >
> > I won't bash Windows technically.  My gripe is with proprietary
> > software, but I live with that, too, when I need to.
> >
> > Al
> >
> > On 9/3/2015 10:27 AM, John Heim wrote:
> > > Folks, Windows is way easier to use than linux.  If you start 2 people
> > > on different machines, one with Windows and the other with linux, the
> > > Windows user would be getting work done sooner and with far less
> > > frustration. That's especially true for blind users. Linux was not
> > > invented to be easy. It was invented to be free.
> > >
> > > There is nothing wrong with saying that you're not going to help anyone
> > > who won't read documentation. But what that shows is that linux is
> > > harder than Windows. The fact is that even if you're willing to read the
> > > documentation, linux and orca are still harder than Windows and jaws
> > > (for example). With linux there is a dizzying array of components to
> > > understand  -- gtk, kde, gdm, lightdm, gnome, gnome-classic, mate,
> > > unity, oss, alsa, pulse, libau, jack. And even if you get past all that,
> > > you probably have to compile orca from source. It's not the orca
> > > developers fault. It's the nature of open source software. Every time a
> > > new version of firefox comes out, it breaks orca. By no means is that
> > > the fault of the orca developers. They have a challenge way beyond that
> > > facing the jaws and nvda developers. And then there's the fact that
> > > Freedom Scientific pays, I don't know, several programmers to work on
> > > jaws. And charges like $1,000 for the complete package. It's not a
> > > contest.
> > >
> > > If you pay $1,000 for something, it had better be better than something
> > > you'd get for free. If the nfbcs list archives go back 20 years, I could
> > > show you messages from me even back then saying that jaws didn't give
> > > good bang for the buck. And that was before orca even existed. Now it's
> > > even more obvious. For the cost, jaws should be better. But I would not
> > > dispute that it is the best screen reader out there. I think it's fair
> > > to say the orca developers have gotten way more out of far less than the
> > > jaws developers.  It's a credit to the orca developers that it's as
> > > close as it is.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 09/03/2015 05:40 AM, kendell clark wrote:
> > > > hi
> > > > Changing the subject to reflect the topic.
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Kendell clark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 09/03/2015 05:20 AM, kk wrote:
> > > > > Totally agreed Kendel +1 for your views, or +100 if I would.
> > > > > Firstly Windows or Linux it has to be learned.
> > > > > I often here people talking about Windows vs linux as if Windows
> > > > > usability is as automatic as a child learns to drink milk naturally
> > > > > from
> > > > > the mother's breast.
> > > > > This basic attitude of Windows = cool, easy and powerful, and Linux =
> > > > > tough, hard, unusable and "do it your self " is not just unfair but
> > > > > outright stupid assumptions.
> > > > > I had the unfortunate time to use Windows XP some years back and had
> > > > > touched windows 7.  I just find it absolutely difficult and complex.
> > > > > For example I never get the logic behind those c:s and d:s.
> > > > > For me Home is place where I have my personal things, a pen drive is a
> > > > > pen drive and cd is a cd.
> > > > > Now I am not here to impose this view on others, There are people who
> > > > > will find windows usable, that's ok, but let me tell you by my
> > > > > experience, I had equal or perhaps a bit difficult to use windows
> > > > > without reading documentation.
> > > > > And free software like gnu/linux does not make you a mute consumer,
> > > > > isolated and dominated by business policies.
> > > > > This is a world in itself.  While one can do business and is is done
> > > > > all
> > > > > the time with free and open source software, it is more of a united
> > > > > "help each other " kind of culture.
> > > > > Now Ubuntu or the distros there off have become out of the box easy to
> > > > > use and I know of masses of students or teachers in many school who
> > > > > started to use Linux in a days time.
> > > > > I have been converting organizations of various sizes from proprietary
> > > > > software to free software.
> > > > > I never needed them to read a lot of documentation even before they got
> > > > > started.
> > > > > But yes Windows or Linux, fre or proprietary, at some point of time it
> > > > > is expected that a person does read docs , either off lline or
> > > > > online to
> > > > > learn firther and ask for help.
> > > > > Happy hacking.
> > > > > Krishnakant.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thursday 03 September 2015 03:24 PM, kendell clark wrote:
> > > > > > hi
> > > > > > Wrong. Just ... wrong. You do have a point that windows does have a
> > > > > > basic screen reader and has since ... I think, windows 2000. But there
> > > > > > are lots of linux images with orca included. I'll say this again. You
> > > > > > have to learn windows just as you had to learn how to read braille,
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > not automatic knowledge. And an attitude like yours is not going to
> > > > > > convince many people to do anything but complain. I can't speak to the
> > > > > > documentation quality of jaws as it is now, but the last time I took a
> > > > > > look at it was little more than a very long, very involved sales pitch
> > > > > > with  a little bit of help. I've never used a mac, so I can't speak to
> > > > > > how well it works, but if it's anything like windows there's basic
> > > > > > documentation that tells you how to use it on a basic level, but from
> > > > > > there you're expected to figure it out. If you refuse to read
> > > > > > documentation then there's little anyone, especially me, can do to
> > > > > > help
> > > > > > you. As a matter of fact, I won't even bother to try helping
> > > > > > someone if
> > > > > > their response to reading documentation is "but that's too hard." As
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > rehab agencies, you're absolutely right. Why they don't at least
> > > > > > acknowledge linux I don't know. And it has very little to do with
> > > > > > windows being better in an accessibility point of view. My cinical
> > > > > > side
> > > > > > suspects a payoff or a license agreement somewhere along the line.
> > > > > > Is it
> > > > > > obvious which linux images are accessible? no, and this should
> > > > > > probably
> > > > > > be improved upon. Of course if you use something like vinux or sonar
> > > > > > that's specifically designed for the blind then that's taken for
> > > > > > granted, but otherwise you have to have a basic idea of linux and
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > desktop environments include orca which really isn't the way to go
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > it. We as orca users are willing to help new users, so your talk of us
> > > > > > not being friendly to new users isn't true. If anything, the new users
> > > > > > are  generally spoiled and expect too much. They're used to
> > > > > > complaining
> > > > > > and getting a fix in the form of a conveniently installable executible
> > > > > > that holds their hand. That's not how things work here. If you're
> > > > > > going
> > > > > > to use linux, you're expected to contribute  and make it better.
> > > > > > You're
> > > > > > not required to of course, but then if you give nothing, you can't
> > > > > > really expect anyone to jump to your aid when you have a problem.
> > > > > > We'll
> > > > > > help you of course, this isn't any kind of exclusive club, but the
> > > > > > minute you start complaining we start losing interest. Someone who has
> > > > > > contributed to linux is likely to get some leeway, but even that runs
> > > > > > out eventually. If you  do nothing ... you have very little leeway
> > > > > > left
> > > > > > if you start yelling because you're not getting helped fast enough, or
> > > > > > you don't like the answers you're given. I'm going to focus on making
> > > > > > linux better now, I find discussions like this rather pointless,
> > > > > > even if
> > > > > > I have a hard time resisting them. The next post I see in this thread
> > > > > > that has anything to do with a windows vs linux topic is going to
> > > > > > get a
> > > > > > subject change from me so people who actually want to improve orca can
> > > > > > delete them easily.
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > Kendell clark
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 09/03/2015 04:26 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> > > > > > > On 9/2/2015 5:00 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> > > > > > > > I haven't been following this thread, but the post below either
> > > > > > > > confuses me
> > > > > > > > or I just don't agree. I can't think of a single screen reader where
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > don't need to know at least one key stroke before starting, such as
> > > > > > > > how to
> > > > > > > > bring up the preferences. You either have to know that key stroke
> > > > > > > > or be
> > > > > > > > familiar enough with the operating system to know how to get into
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > preferences for an application, which I think is what the post
> > > > > > > > below is
> > > > > > > > disagreeing with.
> > > > > > > In general, I agree with you.  Once you have basic familiarity with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > environment, what you say is valid.  Like you, I have yet to find a
> > > > > > > screen reader that doesn't require you to know a keystroke to
> > > > > > > access the
> > > > > > > prefs. However, if I can make a comparison to Windows for a moment,
> > > > > > > there is at least one Windows screen reader which runs a getting
> > > > > > > started
> > > > > > > wizard when it's launched for the first time.  It's very basic, but
> > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > allow you to set the pitch and rate.  It also pops up a tip of the
> > > > > > > day
> > > > > > > with helpful information, such as how to access the prefs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Either way, it's an overly simplistic attitude to say that expecting
> > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > to read some information about an application before using it is the
> > > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > so many people are put off by Linux.
> > > > > > > Yes, well, simplistic or not, it's an unfortunate reality.  I can't
> > > > > > > tell
> > > > > > > you how many people I've come across who were put off because they
> > > > > > > complained that they had to read lots of docs before even getting
> > > > > > > started.  I'm sorry, but we have to deal with reality whether we
> > > > > > > like it
> > > > > > > or not.  I myself don't have that attitude and I don't mind reading
> > > > > > > docs, but I'm the exception. How many times do you hear sayings like,
> > > > > > > "If all else fails, read the instructions."  How many beginners
> > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > take the time to read the manual?  I'm sorry, but simplistic or not,
> > > > > > > that's the way it usually is. This is even more so when you have
> > > > > > > the Mac
> > > > > > > which includes accessibility automatically when the machine is first
> > > > > > > configured.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also, let me mention here that when most blind people get a computer
> > > > > > > with Windows on it, there is already a screen reader installed.  I
> > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > that rehab agencies purchase screen readers for their clients and I
> > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > of a computer donation program which installs NVDA on donated
> > > > > > > machines.
> > > > > > > Since it's still impossible for the blind to install Windows without
> > > > > > > sighted help and since the two screen readers I've used have talking
> > > > > > > installers, Linux has a strike against it from the point of view of a
> > > > > > > Windows user before they even get started.  Expecting them to read
> > > > > > > a set
> > > > > > > of docs on a foreign desktop environment with a foreign screen
> > > > > > > reader is
> > > > > > > too much to ask, I think.  FYI, I didn't have a donated machine and I
> > > > > > > didn't have rehab purchase a screen reader for me, so I'm more
> > > > > > > used to
> > > > > > > figuring things out on my own.  The attitude above is not my opinion,
> > > > > > > but reflects reality for most people that I've encountered.
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > orca-list mailing list
> > orca-list gnome org
> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> _______________________________________________
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> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail