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Re: [orca-list] linux versus windows was Re: GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization

Folks, Windows is way easier to use than linux. If you start 2 people on different machines, one with Windows and the other with linux, the Windows user would be getting work done sooner and with far less frustration. That's especially true for blind users. Linux was not invented to be easy. It was invented to be free.
There is nothing wrong with saying that you're not going to help anyone who won't read documentation. But what that shows is that linux is harder than Windows. The fact is that even if you're willing to read the documentation, linux and orca are still harder than Windows and jaws (for example). With linux there is a dizzying array of components to understand -- gtk, kde, gdm, lightdm, gnome, gnome-classic, mate, unity, oss, alsa, pulse, libau, jack. And even if you get past all that, you probably have to compile orca from source. It's not the orca developers fault. It's the nature of open source software. Every time a new version of firefox comes out, it breaks orca. By no means is that the fault of the orca developers. They have a challenge way beyond that facing the jaws and nvda developers. And then there's the fact that Freedom Scientific pays, I don't know, several programmers to work on jaws. And charges like $1,000 for the complete package. It's not a contest.
If you pay $1,000 for something, it had better be better than something you'd get for free. If the nfbcs list archives go back 20 years, I could show you messages from me even back then saying that jaws didn't give good bang for the buck. And that was before orca even existed. Now it's even more obvious. For the cost, jaws should be better. But I would not dispute that it is the best screen reader out there. I think it's fair to say the orca developers have gotten way more out of far less than the jaws developers. It's a credit to the orca developers that it's as close as it is. 


On 09/03/2015 05:40 AM, kendell clark wrote:

hi
Changing the subject to reflect the topic.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/03/2015 05:20 AM, kk wrote:

Totally agreed Kendel +1 for your views, or +100 if I would.
Firstly Windows or Linux it has to be learned.
I often here people talking about Windows vs linux as if Windows
usability is as automatic as a child learns to drink milk naturally from
the mother's breast.
This basic attitude of Windows = cool, easy and powerful, and Linux =
tough, hard, unusable and "do it your self " is not just unfair but
outright stupid assumptions.
I had the unfortunate time to use Windows XP some years back and had
touched windows 7.  I just find it absolutely difficult and complex.
For example I never get the logic behind those c:s and d:s.
For me Home is place where I have my personal things, a pen drive is a
pen drive and cd is a cd.
Now I am not here to impose this view on others, There are people who
will find windows usable, that's ok, but let me tell you by my
experience, I had equal or perhaps a bit difficult to use windows
without reading documentation.
And free software like gnu/linux does not make you a mute consumer,
isolated and dominated by business policies.
This is a world in itself.  While one can do business and is is done all
the time with free and open source software, it is more of a united
"help each other " kind of culture.
Now Ubuntu or the distros there off have become out of the box easy to
use and I know of masses of students or teachers in many school who
started to use Linux in a days time.
I have been converting organizations of various sizes from proprietary
software to free software.
I never needed them to read a lot of documentation even before they got
started.
But yes Windows or Linux, fre or proprietary, at some point of time it
is expected that a person does read docs , either off lline or online to
learn firther and ask for help.
Happy hacking.
Krishnakant.




On Thursday 03 September 2015 03:24 PM, kendell clark wrote:

hi
Wrong. Just ... wrong. You do have a point that windows does have a
basic screen reader and has since ... I think, windows 2000. But there
are lots of linux images with orca included. I'll say this again. You
have to learn windows just as you had to learn how to read braille, it's
not automatic knowledge. And an attitude like yours is not going to
convince many people to do anything but complain. I can't speak to the
documentation quality of jaws as it is now, but the last time I took a
look at it was little more than a very long, very involved sales pitch
with  a little bit of help. I've never used a mac, so I can't speak to
how well it works, but if it's anything like windows there's basic
documentation that tells you how to use it on a basic level, but from
there you're expected to figure it out. If you refuse to read
documentation then there's little anyone, especially me, can do to help
you. As a matter of fact, I won't even bother to try helping someone if
their response to reading documentation is "but that's too hard." As for
rehab agencies, you're absolutely right. Why they don't at least
acknowledge linux I don't know. And it has very little to do with
windows being better in an accessibility point of view. My cinical side
suspects a payoff or a license agreement somewhere along the line. Is it
obvious which linux images are accessible? no, and this should probably
be improved upon. Of course if you use something like vinux or sonar
that's specifically designed for the blind then that's taken for
granted, but otherwise you have to have a basic idea of linux and which
desktop environments include orca which really isn't the way to go about
it. We as orca users are willing to help new users, so your talk of us
not being friendly to new users isn't true. If anything, the new users
are  generally spoiled and expect too much. They're used to complaining
and getting a fix in the form of a conveniently installable executible
that holds their hand. That's not how things work here. If you're going
to use linux, you're expected to contribute  and make it better. You're
not required to of course, but then if you give nothing, you can't
really expect anyone to jump to your aid when you have a problem. We'll
help you of course, this isn't any kind of exclusive club, but the
minute you start complaining we start losing interest. Someone who has
contributed to linux is likely to get some leeway, but even that runs
out eventually. If you  do nothing ... you have very little leeway left
if you start yelling because you're not getting helped fast enough, or
you don't like the answers you're given. I'm going to focus on making
linux better now, I find discussions like this rather pointless, even if
I have a hard time resisting them. The next post I see in this thread
that has anything to do with a windows vs linux topic is going to get a
subject change from me so people who actually want to improve orca can
delete them easily.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/03/2015 04:26 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:

On 9/2/2015 5:00 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I haven't been following this thread, but the post below either
confuses me
or I just don't agree. I can't think of a single screen reader where
you
don't need to know at least one key stroke before starting, such as
how to
bring up the preferences. You either have to know that key stroke or be
familiar enough with the operating system to know how to get into the
preferences for an application, which I think is what the post below is
disagreeing with.

In general, I agree with you.  Once you have basic familiarity with the
environment, what you say is valid.  Like you, I have yet to find a
screen reader that doesn't require you to know a keystroke to access the
prefs. However, if I can make a comparison to Windows for a moment,
there is at least one Windows screen reader which runs a getting started
wizard when it's launched for the first time.  It's very basic, but does
allow you to set the pitch and rate.  It also pops up a tip of the day
with helpful information, such as how to access the prefs.


Either way, it's an overly simplistic attitude to say that expecting
someone
to read some information about an application before using it is the
reason
so many people are put off by Linux.


Yes, well, simplistic or not, it's an unfortunate reality.  I can't tell
you how many people I've come across who were put off because they
complained that they had to read lots of docs before even getting
started.  I'm sorry, but we have to deal with reality whether we like it
or not.  I myself don't have that attitude and I don't mind reading
docs, but I'm the exception. How many times do you hear sayings like,
"If all else fails, read the instructions."  How many beginners actually
take the time to read the manual?  I'm sorry, but simplistic or not,
that's the way it usually is. This is even more so when you have the Mac
which includes accessibility automatically when the machine is first
configured.

Also, let me mention here that when most blind people get a computer
with Windows on it, there is already a screen reader installed.  I know
that rehab agencies purchase screen readers for their clients and I know
of a computer donation program which installs NVDA on donated machines.
Since it's still impossible for the blind to install Windows without
sighted help and since the two screen readers I've used have talking
installers, Linux has a strike against it from the point of view of a
Windows user before they even get started.  Expecting them to read a set
of docs on a foreign desktop environment with a foreign screen reader is
too much to ask, I think.  FYI, I didn't have a donated machine and I
didn't have rehab purchase a screen reader for me, so I'm more used to
figuring things out on my own.  The attitude above is not my opinion,
but reflects reality for most people that I've encountered.
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Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
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Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


--
John Heim
john johnheim com
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