Re: [orca-list] GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization

[kendell clark <coffeekingms gmail com>]

hi
Wrong. Just ... wrong. You do have a point that windows does have a
basic screen reader and has since ... I think, windows 2000. But there
are lots of linux images with orca included. I'll say this again. You
have to learn windows just as you had to learn how to read braille, it's
not automatic knowledge. And an attitude like yours is not going to
convince many people to do anything but complain. I can't speak to the
documentation quality of jaws as it is now, but the last time I took a
look at it was little more than a very long, very involved sales pitch
with  a little bit of help. I've never used a mac, so I can't speak to
how well it works, but if it's anything like windows there's basic
documentation that tells you how to use it on a basic level, but from
there you're expected to figure it out. If you refuse to read
documentation then there's little anyone, especially me, can do to help
you. As a matter of fact, I won't even bother to try helping someone if
their response to reading documentation is "but that's too hard." As for
rehab agencies, you're absolutely right. Why they don't at least
acknowledge linux I don't know. And it has very little to do with
windows being better in an accessibility point of view. My cinical side
suspects a payoff or a license agreement somewhere along the line. Is it
obvious which linux images are accessible? no, and this should probably
be improved upon. Of course if you use something like vinux or sonar
that's specifically designed for the blind then that's taken for
granted, but otherwise you have to have a basic idea of linux and which
desktop environments include orca which really isn't the way to go about
it. We as orca users are willing to help new users, so your talk of us
not being friendly to new users isn't true. If anything, the new users
are  generally spoiled and expect too much. They're used to complaining
and getting a fix in the form of a conveniently installable executible
that holds their hand. That's not how things work here. If you're going
to use linux, you're expected to contribute  and make it better. You're
not required to of course, but then if you give nothing, you can't
really expect anyone to jump to your aid when you have a problem. We'll
help you of course, this isn't any kind of exclusive club, but the
minute you start complaining we start losing interest. Someone who has
contributed to linux is likely to get some leeway, but even that runs
out eventually. If you  do nothing ... you have very little leeway left
if you start yelling because you're not getting helped fast enough, or
you don't like the answers you're given. I'm going to focus on making
linux better now, I find discussions like this rather pointless, even if
I have a hard time resisting them. The next post I see in this thread
that has anything to do with a windows vs linux topic is going to get a
subject change from me so people who actually want to improve orca can
delete them easily.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/03/2015 04:26 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> On 9/2/2015 5:00 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> > I haven't been following this thread, but the post below either
> > confuses me
> > or I just don't agree. I can't think of a single screen reader where you
> > don't need to know at least one key stroke before starting, such as
> > how to
> > bring up the preferences. You either have to know that key stroke or be
> > familiar enough with the operating system to know how to get into the
> > preferences for an application, which I think is what the post below is
> > disagreeing with.
>
> In general, I agree with you.  Once you have basic familiarity with the
> environment, what you say is valid.  Like you, I have yet to find a
> screen reader that doesn't require you to know a keystroke to access the
> prefs. However, if I can make a comparison to Windows for a moment,
> there is at least one Windows screen reader which runs a getting started
> wizard when it's launched for the first time.  It's very basic, but does
> allow you to set the pitch and rate.  It also pops up a tip of the day
> with helpful information, such as how to access the prefs.
>
> > Either way, it's an overly simplistic attitude to say that expecting
> > someone
> > to read some information about an application before using it is the
> > reason
> > so many people are put off by Linux.
>
> Yes, well, simplistic or not, it's an unfortunate reality.  I can't tell
> you how many people I've come across who were put off because they
> complained that they had to read lots of docs before even getting
> started.  I'm sorry, but we have to deal with reality whether we like it
> or not.  I myself don't have that attitude and I don't mind reading
> docs, but I'm the exception. How many times do you hear sayings like,
> "If all else fails, read the instructions."  How many beginners actually
> take the time to read the manual?  I'm sorry, but simplistic or not,
> that's the way it usually is. This is even more so when you have the Mac
> which includes accessibility automatically when the machine is first
> configured.
>
> Also, let me mention here that when most blind people get a computer
> with Windows on it, there is already a screen reader installed.  I know
> that rehab agencies purchase screen readers for their clients and I know
> of a computer donation program which installs NVDA on donated machines. 
> Since it's still impossible for the blind to install Windows without
> sighted help and since the two screen readers I've used have talking
> installers, Linux has a strike against it from the point of view of a
> Windows user before they even get started.  Expecting them to read a set
> of docs on a foreign desktop environment with a foreign screen reader is
> too much to ask, I think.  FYI, I didn't have a donated machine and I
> didn't have rehab purchase a screen reader for me, so I'm more used to
> figuring things out on my own.  The attitude above is not my opinion,
> but reflects reality for most people that I've encountered.
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