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Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT

The way accessibility was approached by Google is pretty smart.  Eyes-free
they call it implying that someone who can see might choose to operate their
smartphone without using their vision.  This is so they can keep their eyes
on the road, for instance.  Thus, it became something valuable to include in
their operating system as a feature that could benefit the entire user
population and not just one specific sector of it.  I thought it was rather
clever and I must say I like the inclusive mindset.  Apple has done
something similar with Siri.

Alex M


-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of
Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 3:17 PM
To: vinux-support googlegroups com
Cc: 'Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to
Mir and QT

I know you didn't say this, but Mark Shuttleworth and Jane Silver are aware
that totally blind people can use computers and smart phones. I think you're
right in that it's hard for any one to quantify their return on investment
into accessibility, even a smart business man or woman. I'm not even sure
you could say that Apple has sold a million iPhones they wouldn't have sold
otherwise because of VoiceOver and accessibility. Also, selling a million
more smart phones has to be prioritized behind selling that first smart
phone.

Getting a new smart phone with a new operating system into the arena is
incredibly hard. Not only is there all of the development that needs to go
on (think of all of those apps you take for granted on your current smart
phone and realize none of those apps exist yet under Unity) but there's also
the fact that you need to get manufacturers and carriers on board and build
an ecosystem around a new player in the mobile space.

I'm not saying Canonical shouldn't be investing more in accessibility, in
fact, I think they should be. I'd like to see them pushing accessibility
more in their marketing, be the first smart phone to be accessible right out
of the gate and hammer home the fact that ubuntu (the philosophy and
operating system) includes blind people. I think this would pay off for
Canonical down the road.

Whatever anyone thinks of Canonical and Mark Shuttleworth, he is an
incredibly successful, bright and driven person, and he has to accomplish an
awful lot with limited resources if Ubuntu Touch is going to be successful.
Accessibility is only one challenge on his radar.

On 07/24/2013 12:29 PM, Krishnakant Mane wrote:

I think the issue here is the total mindset and also the fact that 
many so called smart business men don't realize the business they can 
generate out of accessibility.
Firstly, there are those who don't *still* beleive that a totaly blind 
person like me can actually use a Phone, let alone a computer.
And I am refering to highly qualified engineers or business personals.
Secondly, how many would go one step ahead and say "let's add a 
million more probable custommers by making the device accessible"?
That's why accessibility takes a back seet.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.

On 07/24/2013 10:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I agree accessibility should be baked in from the beginning. It's 
cheaper than bolting it on later, opens up more revenue streams, 
provides positive PR and so on. It's the law here in the US, and just 
the right thing to do. I wasn't speaking from my own opinion, but 
just echoing where I think these companies are coming from and why I 
think their making the investments they are. I can't think of a 
single smart phone company that introduced an accessible smart phone 
with they're first offering and that includes Apple, Google, 
Microsoft and Nokia. I don't like it, but I don't think many 
companies place accessibility very high on their priority lists as 
compared to getting a new product into the market place and getting 
it to a point where it's competitive and profitable.

I've heard that Apple had to develop it's own screen reader when 
Berkley Systems went out of business and no other 3rd party screen 
reader would develop a screen reader for the Mac. Apple was in danger 
of losing government contracts because MS had an accessible story 
while Apple did not. I don't know this first hand, but I would say I 
have it from reliable sources. Of course, Apple has gone far beyond 
this in making all of it's products accessible out of the box.

I'm not aware of any company losing a government contract because 
they didn't have an accessible smart phone story, but I suspect this 
is possible as smart phones become more and more a ubiquitous part of 
the business world. This is why I suspect MS will address 
accessibility on their Windows Phone platform at some point. I think 
they need to get the Windows Phone platform to a point where 
government agencies start considering asking their employees to use a 
Windows Phone. Right now, I suspect Windows Phone doesn't have the 
apps or the market penetration for businesses or government agencies 
to even consider it as an option. I've heard good things about the 
Windows Phone platform though, and I do know it's becoming a viable 
third option behind Apple and Android.

The real point of my email though was to be careful making analogies 
between Canonical and Apple/Google. If we assume Canonical has 500 
employees with one person working on accessibility (I know I'm being
optimistic.) then how does this compare to Apple and it's ratio of 
total employees to those working on accessibility? Also, don't forget 
that Apple's first smart phone was not accessible. It wasn't until 
this was successful in the market place and competing with Nokia and 
Blackberry before they added accessibility. Ditto for Google.

On 07/24/2013 11:57 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:

It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a 
"viable product" apparently does not include accessibility as a 
matter of course.  (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only 
that this is the view you describe--all too well and concisely.) 
Until our access needs are deemed equal to the access needs of those 
who use the standard monitor and other tools, the attitude in the

business will be wrong.


Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's 
recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit.  (I say 
"recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it 
provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure 
whether this is right or wrong?

Al

On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote:

I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity 
accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and 
Apple or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. 
Google is also a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple 
and Google are already well established players in the mobile 
space. Neither the iPhone nor Android were accessible when they 
were first released. Canonical is a tiny company, less than 600 
employees, and is still not profitable after being around for about 
eight years or so. It's still trying to break into the mobile 
market.

I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest 
more in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that 
circumstances right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are 
quite a bit different.
I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product 
out into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it 
becomes successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as 
Apple and Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft 
and Windows Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in 
the mobile space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will 
move up higher on their priority queue.

On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote:

Hi, Luke,

Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were 
part of the problem.  What I do think is that it sucks that you 
are the only one having to do all this work.  They really should 
hire you some help.  There is only so much one person can do and 
a11y is a big job.  Apple has a full on team working on Voiceover.  
Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and probably others I don't 
know about working on Android accessibility. If canonical is going 
to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't 
hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload.
However,
those decisions are beyond our control.  Speaking for myself, I am 
personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in.


Best regards,
Alex M

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso ubuntu com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM
To: Alex Midence
Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support googlegroups com; 'Ubuntu 
Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop 
to go to Mir and QT

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote:

Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the 
hard work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely 
give of their time to make things accessible.  However, it was 
disappointing to finally have gotten a very accessible port of 
Unity in 12.04 only to be told that we were back to poor a11y in 
other versions of the distro for at the very least 2 full years.

For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire 
for Unity to stick with using Qt at the time, given the 
accessibility advantages it brought for one, and the fact that it 
would have made maintaining unity easier as the nux GUI toolkit 
wouldn't also need to be maintained, and Qt is well established 
etc.

I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least 
some of the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of 
the time, because I do have other duties, in fact the primary 
reason why I was hired was not to work exclusively on 
accessibility, although the powers that be are ok with me doing 
so.

Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will 
almost exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an 
environment as one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, 
but the specific parts of Qt that are being used for the new Unity 
still have some rough spots when it comes to accessibility, and 
there is also the changing graphics stack and everythign that goes 
with it to deal with.

Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely 
going to be working on all of this, I cannot really promise 
anything, given the work that is required, and given the time and 
resources, or possibly lack there of, available to do so. I do 
really appreciate that you all want regularly updated, accessible 
distro releases that have the latest accessibility crack, but 
please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix 
accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many 
of us are involved with some form of active development in the 
area, and if you want to dig deeper, think about the number of us 
working on GUI desktop accessibility of some kind.

I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least 
delivering, and if I can over deliver, than thats great.

In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME 
shell, wich does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to 
try and fix any issues people may notice with that release, given 
the accessibility tools and infrastructure are shared with GNOME 
and Unity.

Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support.

Luke









--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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