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Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to go to Mir and QT

I agree accessibility should be baked in from the beginning. It's cheaper than bolting it on later, opens up more revenue streams, provides positive PR and so on. It's the law here in the US, and just the right thing to do. I wasn't speaking from my own opinion, but just echoing where I think these companies are coming from and why I think their making the investments they are. I can't think of a single smart phone company that introduced an accessible smart phone with they're first offering and that includes Apple, Google, Microsoft and Nokia. I don't like it, but I don't think many companies place accessibility very high on their priority lists as compared to getting a new product into the market place and getting it to a point where it's competitive and profitable.
I've heard that Apple had to develop it's own screen reader when Berkley Systems went out of business and no other 3rd party screen reader would develop a screen reader for the Mac. Apple was in danger of losing government contracts because MS had an accessible story while Apple did not. I don't know this first hand, but I would say I have it from reliable sources. Of course, Apple has gone far beyond this in making all of it's products accessible out of the box.
I'm not aware of any company losing a government contract because they didn't have an accessible smart phone story, but I suspect this is possible as smart phones become more and more a ubiquitous part of the business world. This is why I suspect MS will address accessibility on their Windows Phone platform at some point. I think they need to get the Windows Phone platform to a point where government agencies start considering asking their employees to use a Windows Phone. Right now, I suspect Windows Phone doesn't have the apps or the market penetration for businesses or government agencies to even consider it as an option. I've heard good things about the Windows Phone platform though, and I do know it's becoming a viable third option behind Apple and Android.
The real point of my email though was to be careful making analogies between Canonical and Apple/Google. If we assume Canonical has 500 employees with one person working on accessibility (I know I'm being optimistic.) then how does this compare to Apple and it's ratio of total employees to those working on accessibility? Also, don't forget that Apple's first smart phone was not accessible. It wasn't until this was successful in the market place and competing with Nokia and Blackberry before they added accessibility. Ditto for Google. 

On 07/24/2013 11:57 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:

It strikes me that, from the perspective you're describing, a "viable
product" apparently does not include accessibility as a matter of
course.  (I'm not saying that's your own view, but only that this is the
view you describe--all too well and concisely.) Until our access needs
are deemed equal to the access needs of those who use the standard
monitor and other tools, the attitude in the business will be wrong.

Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think I heard recently that Apple's
recent foray into accessibility resulted from a law suit.  (I say
"recent foray" because there was a period during the 1980s when it
provided some speech output at least.) Does anybody know for sure
whether this is right or wrong?

Al

On 07/23/2013 11:38 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote:

I agree it's unfortunate that Luke is the only one working on Unity
accessibility, but there is a big difference between Canonical and Apple
or Google. Apple is the wealthiest company in the world. Google is also
a large company and is also quite profitable. Apple and Google are
already well established players in the mobile space. Neither the iPhone
nor Android were accessible when they were first released. Canonical is
a tiny company, less than 600 employees, and is still not profitable
after being around for about eight years or so. It's still trying to
break into the mobile market.

I'm not defending Canonical here. I too wish that they would invest more
in accessibility development. I'm just pointing out that circumstances
right now between Canonical and Apple/Google are quite a bit different.
I think Canonical focus right now is to just get a viable product out
into the market place. I'm sure that once that happens and it becomes
successful, they'll invest more in accessibility, just as Apple and
Google have. In some ways, this is analogous to Microsoft and Windows
Phone. MS's priority right now is to become relevant in the mobile
space. Once that happens then I think accessibility will move up higher
on their priority queue.

On 07/24/2013 08:41 AM, Alex Midence wrote:

Hi, Luke,

Just to be clear, I don't think and have never thought you were part
of the
problem.  What I do think is that it sucks that you are the only one
having
to do all this work.  They really should hire you some help.  There is
only
so much one person can do and a11y is a big job.  Apple has a full on
team
working on Voiceover.  Google has Dr. Raman and his assistant and
probably
others I don't know about working on Android accessibility.  If
canonical is
going to expand into all these other markets, I don't see why they can't
hire you a couple of assistants to help distribute the workload.
However,
those decisions are beyond our control.  Speaking for myself, I am
personally very appreciative of all the work you have put in.


Best regards,
Alex M

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Yelavich [mailto:themuso ubuntu com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:05 PM
To: Alex Midence
Cc: Christopher Chaltain; vinux-support googlegroups com; 'Ubuntu
Accessibility Mailing List'; orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] VINUX-SUPPORT: RE: Ubuntu Unity Desktop to
go to
Mir and QT

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:33:34PM EST, Alex Midence wrote:

Also, for the record, I fully recognize and appreciate all the hard
work of the developers of the Ubuntu community who freely give of
their time to make things accessible.  However, it was disappointing
to finally have gotten a very accessible port of Unity in 12.04 only
to be told that we were back to poor a11y in other versions of the
distro for at the very least 2 full years.

For the record, I was disappointed as well. I expressed my desire for
Unity
to stick with using Qt at the time, given the accessibility
advantages it
brought for one, and the fact that it would have made maintaining unity
easier as the nux GUI toolkit wouldn't also need to be maintained, and
Qt is
well established etc.

I am the only developer working for Canonical who spends at least
some of
the time working on accessibility issues. I say some of the time,
because I
do have other duties, in fact the primary reason why I was hired was
not to
work exclusively on accessibility, although the powers that be are ok
with
me doing so.

Having said that, my big focus for the next 10-12 months will almost
exclusively be getting Qt5, Mir, and Unity as accessible an
environment as
one person can possibly manage. Qt5 helps somewhat, but the specific
parts
of Qt that are being used for the new Unity still have some rough
spots when
it comes to accessibility, and there is also the changing graphics
stack and
everythign that goes with it to deal with.

Given these changes, and given I am the only person who is likely
going to
be working on all of this, I cannot really promise anything, given the
work
that is required, and given the time and resources, or possibly lack
there
of, available to do so. I do really appreciate that you all want
regularly
updated, accessible distro releases that have the latest accessibility
crack, but please keep in mind just how many of us in the wider *nix
accessibility community there are, and also keep in mind how many of
us are
involved with some form of active development in the area, and if you
want
to dig deeper, think about the number of us working on GUI desktop
accessibility of some kind.

I try to take the approach of under promising, and at least
delivering, and
if I can over deliver, than thats great.

In the meantime, there is the Ubuntu GNOME remix, with GNOME shell, wich
does work quite well these days. I'll do my best to try and fix any
issues
people may notice with that release, given the accessibility tools and
infrastructure are shared with GNOME and Unity.

Thanks, and I really appreciate your understanding, and support.

Luke





--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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