Re: [orca-list] the speakupmodified dists from speakupmodified.org

[Alex Midence <alex midence gmail com>]

Too true.  Emacs' key combinations were around long before there was a
Windows.  I think they may even predate x itself back in the 80's.  Emacs
was written in line 1977 or something.  There are lots of console
environments that adopt its keystrokes such as Bash shell and Gnu Screen.
Thing is though, they never caught on the way the standards in Windows and
Mac did so they became unconventional.  It's a pity because, in some ways,
they make a whole lot more sense.  There are some IDE's that let you use a
set of hotkeys with these instead of the conventional ones.  Did you know
Eclipse has an Emacs mode for hotkeys?  I understand that if you set it up,
it makes you extremely fast in Eclipse if you are familiar with the Emacs
keystrokes.  

Alex M


-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list-bounces gnome org [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On
Behalf Of Kirk Reiser
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:45 AM
To: Thomas Ward
Cc: orca-list
Subject: Re: [orca-list] the speakupmodified dists from speakupmodified.org

I believe you are absolutely right in your message below except for one
fact.  It is not that emacs or vi chose to be different than the norm.  When
they were written they were the norm.  This is a point that so many newbies
either forget or never learned.  The editors and other applications such as
emacs came long before Microsoft ever dreamed of Windows or even DOS.  DOS
was a cheap immitation of the Unix type shell only poorer, a lesser cousin
if you will.

They could not choose to be different because there was nobody to be
different from except other unknowns by todays standards such a teco and
redit etc.

   Kirk

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012, Thomas Ward wrote:

> Hi Alex,
>
> Well said. Although, I don't think learning Emacs is any more 
> difficult than learning how to use Gnome, Unity, or KDE, etc its more 
> a matter of what a person is use to. I'd say the majority of VI Linux 
> users are coming to Linux from a Microsoft Windows environment, and 
> they will come to Emacs expecting the same commands as they know when 
> using Word, Notepad, Excel, etc. Most people aren't going to want to 
> relearn everything they know from scratch simply because Emacs adopted 
> a totally non-standard user interface.
>
> I'll use myself as an example here/. When I first began using Linux in 
> the late 90's Orca didn't exist, and Speakup was in the very early 
> stages of development.At the time the only reliable speech solution 
> for Linux was Emacspeak with a hardware synth like a Dectalk Express.
> Which is what I learned to use.  Thing is I learned to use Emacs 
> simply because I had to for my programming classes.
>
> However, were I coming to Linux for the first time today I doubt I 
> would b learning Emacs or Emacspeak simply because Gnome and Orca 
> provide a similar experience to Microsoft Windows applications. All 
> the keyboard commands such as control+x for cut, control+c for copy,
> control+v for paste, etc work as expected. I don't need to look up the
> Emacs commands which are really non-standard compared to what I and 
> other Windows users are use to. Its not a case of Emacs being anymore 
> difficult than Gedit or Libre Office, but more the fact it is 
> unconventional and a person has to basically relearn everything they 
> know about using a computer to operate it.
>
> Since I know both its no big deal now, but if I were coming at Emacs 
> with other options like Gedit and Libre Office available I'd take the 
> path of least complication. I'd say this is true for most VI computer 
> users. Give them something similar to what they already know and 
> they'll use it. Give them something different and they'll avoid it.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> On 7/9/12, Alex Midence <alex midence gmail com> wrote:
> > Disagree all you like.  The facts speek for themselves.  Ask around 
> > and find out how many people use Emacs or Emacspeak.  It's 
> > depressingly few.
> > Compare
> > that to how many use Gedit and Libre Office.  A simple poll on any 
> > list you like should suffice to give you an idea.  I'm an avid 
> > Emacsoid myself and I wish it were otherwise.  I've even gone so far 
> > as to spend several hours of my time writing an introductory guide to 
> > it for novice users of Linux in an effort to increase the user base 
> > somewhat.  People just seem to find it easier to master Libre Office 
> > and Gedit than they do Emacs.  Part of the reason is that 
> > unconventional interface you mentioned.  It introduces complexity and 
> > difficulty or the perception thereof.  The harder something is to 
> > master, the fewer people will want to master it.  Their need for the 
> > software has to be high enough to justify the extra time and effort.  
> > If they find out there's something out there that does the same thing 
> > but with less effort on their part, they're gone.  The only thing 
> > that will counteract this phenomenon is if they are required to use 
> > it by some outside entity like their job or something like  that.
> >
> > Alex M
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> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
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> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
> how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

--
Kirk Reiser                             The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk braille uwo ca             University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061
_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to
help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp