Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.

[Bob Hazard <linuxoflondon googlemail com>]

GTK themes are unaffected and Mutter which replaces Metacity to draw
the window decorations is 100% compatible with old Metacity themes.

The devs are talking about using CSS to theme the shell itself to make
it more accessible.

2009/12/18 Danté Ashton <mentalomega googlemail com>:
> To be perfectly honest, I agree with the car analogy.
> I suppose my main problem with it is that I do seem to be taking a step back
> to take what I need.
>
> Or, to use another anology. It's like keeping my drink outside the room I'm
> in, in Gnome's history, I've always had my drink with me, but with Shell,
> I'll have to leave it outside and come and get it when I want it.
>
> A dock-bar like Cairo or AWN would be a way of replacing an app, but what if
> I'd want just a normal taskbar?
>
> Another, minor point I'd like to raise; would such a massive rework of the
> enviorment break compatabilty with the community's previous themes? (IE:
> Could I go to GNOME Look or GNOME Art, and still expect a theme package to
> work correctly?)
>
>
> On 18/12/09 23:32, gnome-shell-list-request gnome org wrote:
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. RE: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Mark Curtis)
>>    2. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Bob Hazard)
>>    3. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth)
>>    4. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Ryan Peters)
>>    5. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:47:30 -0500
>> From: Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>
>> To:<gnome-shell-list gnome org>
>> Subject: RE: All GNOME Shell Developers.
>> Message-ID:<SNT106-W1545C2634511796A50327FBB850 phx gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"
>>
>>
>> I don't want to speak for Dante, but considering he says "one click" I'm
>> guessing he has shortcuts in either the top or bottom panel where no such
>> thing exists in GNOME Shell.
>>
>> Even if you don't want to consider the overlay a click, it is still more
>> mouse movement. Up to the left to activate overlay, then back down to click
>> on shortcut.
>> Shortcuts on the GNOME Panel have the advantage of infinite height or
>> width as well, this advantage is lost in the overlay.
>>
>> From: sri ramkrishna me
>> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:43:39 -0800
>> Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
>> To: merkinman hotmail com
>> CC: gnome-shell-list gnome org
>>
>>
>>
>> 2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...
>>
>> I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell
>>
>> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
>>  "...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what it
>> takes me one to do now?"
>>
>> ????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Precisely why I took him to task.  Back on topic:
>>
>> In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
>> Applications->section->App
>>
>> so that is three clicks.
>>
>>
>>
>> In gnome-shell method, we have:
>>
>> * 1 click for common used apps
>> * 2 clicks for any other apps
>>
>> I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click.  But if you did,
>> it would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.
>>
>>
>>
>> Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat
>> scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.
>>
>> sri
>>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:52:15 +0000
>> From: Bob Hazard<linuxoflondon googlemail com>
>> To: ????? ?????????<denis cheremisov net>
>> Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org, Dant? Ashton
>>        <mentalomega googlemail com>
>> Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
>> Message-ID:
>>        <90e180400912181452l5ccb9fe8ha5e93976e552e569 mail gmail com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> When I say a few weeks I mean the muscle memory of someone who has
>> done it the old way a thousand times a day for 15-20 years.
>>
>> Any change takes getting used to in this situation whether or not it is
>> better.
>>
>> 2009/12/18 ????? ?????????<denis cheremisov net>:
>>
>>>
>>> Few weeks to get comfortable? Man, are you crazy?
>>> It's too long and only proves the gnome-shell idea sucks.
>>>
>>> 2009/12/19 Bob Hazard<linuxoflondon googlemail com>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's actually more useful to someone with only one workspace because
>>>> they tend to have even more overlapping windows.
>>>>
>>>> It only needs one click to switch windows anyway. ?The top left corner
>>>> is a big target you can do a very approximate gesture to trigger the
>>>> zoom without clicking.
>>>>
>>>> After a while it becomes second nature and I was surprised that it
>>>> feels very old fashioned to go back to a flat desktop.
>>>>
>>>> Try Docky if you find the transition uncomfortable but it only takes a
>>>> few weeks.
>>>>
>>>> 2009/12/18 Dant? Ashton<mentalomega googlemail com>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been watching GNOME Shell for a while, but there is one problem
>>>>> that I
>>>>> really can't see being resolved.
>>>>>
>>>>> How useful is this to someone who uses one desktop? Just one?
>>>>> Never-mind
>>>>> the
>>>>> other one, or three, or four...
>>>>>
>>>>> Why should I, the user, have to perform three extra clicks just to do
>>>>> what
>>>>> it takes me one to do now?
>>>>>
>>>>> There has been less video/photo material to consume then I could safely
>>>>> make
>>>>> a judgement on, and if the 'one desktop' problem has been addressed and
>>>>> solved, I apologize for taking up your time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnome-shell-list mailing list
>>>>> gnome-shell-list gnome org
>>>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnome-shell-list mailing list
>>>> gnome-shell-list gnome org
>>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ? ?????????, ????? ?????????.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:56:50 +0000
>> From: Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth<mazz0 mazz0 com>
>> To: Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>
>> Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
>> Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
>> Message-ID:
>>        <394c17690912181456s19271b57wac25cd638d75604 mail gmail com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Reducing the number of key clicks isn't a gain if it means you have a much
>> bigger list to look through.  You can't measure usability purely in number
>> of clicks, or having the categorized menu would never have been an
>> improvement in the first place.
>>
>> 2009/12/18 Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html
>>>>
>>>> Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
>>>>  "...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what it
>>>> takes me one to do now?"
>>>>
>>>> ????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Precisely why I took him to task.  Back on topic:
>>>
>>> In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
>>> Applications->section->App
>>>
>>> so that is three clicks.
>>>
>>> In gnome-shell method, we have:
>>>
>>> * 1 click for common used apps
>>> * 2 clicks for any other apps
>>>
>>> I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click.  But if you did,
>>> it
>>> would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.
>>>
>>> Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat
>>> scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.
>>>
>>> sri
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnome-shell-list mailing list
>>> gnome-shell-list gnome org
>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:22:39 -0600
>> From: Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>
>> To: gnome-shell-list gnome org
>> Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
>> Message-ID:<4B2C0EBF 4070105 sbcglobal net>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:32:20 +0000
>> From: Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth<mazz0 mazz0 com>
>> To: Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>
>> Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
>> Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
>> Message-ID:
>>        <394c17690912181532h28d5210dy3c069d1616083824 mail gmail com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Good point, it /is/ only two clicks to launch an app from the menu, even
>> if
>> it's sub-categorized.  I don't really think it can be denied that
>> launching
>> apps, just like switching between them, is *currently* slower and more
>> complicated in shell than it is with a panel/dock.  The question is, how
>> can
>> that be improved?
>>
>> 2009/12/18 Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>  On 12/18/2009 04:56 PM, Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth wrote:
>>>
>>> Reducing the number of key clicks isn't a gain if it means you have a
>>> much
>>> bigger list to look through.  You can't measure usability purely in
>>> number
>>> of clicks, or having the categorized menu would never have been an
>>> improvement in the first place.
>>>
>>> 2009/12/18 Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html
>>>>>
>>>>>  Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
>>>>>  "...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what
>>>>> it
>>>>> takes me one to do now?"
>>>>>
>>>>> ????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Precisely why I took him to task.  Back on topic:
>>>>
>>>> In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
>>>> Applications->section->App
>>>>
>>>> so that is three clicks.
>>>>
>>>> In gnome-shell method, we have:
>>>>
>>>> * 1 click for common used apps
>>>> * 2 clicks for any other apps
>>>>
>>>> I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click.  But if you did,
>>>> it would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.
>>>>
>>>> Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat
>>>> scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.
>>>>
>>>> sri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnome-shell-list mailing list
>>>> gnome-shell-list gnome org
>>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnome-shell-list mailing
>>> listgnome-shell-list gnome orghttp://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
>>>
>>>  That doesn't mean that more clicks means it's more usable, though. In
>>> Gnome-Shell, if I want to launch an application that isn't on my recently
>>> opened applications list, I have a lot more clicks than before.
>>>
>>> 1. Open Activities (arguably this can be triggered without a click,
>>> though)
>>> 2. Click "Browse" on the Applications section.
>>> 3. Click on the category I want.
>>> 4. Sift through a page or two (why the pages!?) to find the application
>>> I'm
>>> looking for.
>>>
>>> This is not intuitive, takes forever (especially considering the
>>> *speed*it opens the menus), and is at least twice as confusing as the method
>>> present in the current Gnome stable release.
>>>
>>> Also, I only have two clicks to open an application as I am now.
>>>
>>> 1. Open the applications menu.
>>> 2. Highlight the mouse over a menu and when it pops up (you don't need to
>>> click it, just like in Windows), click the app you want to open.
>>>
>>> There are lots of users that can make use of workspaces, but you
>>> shouldn't
>>> force them to use them.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnome-shell-list mailing list
>>> gnome-shell-list gnome org
>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
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