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RE: All GNOME Shell Developers.

To be perfectly honest, I agree with the car analogy.
I suppose my main problem with it is that I do seem to be taking a step back to take what I need.
Or, to use another anology. It's like keeping my drink outside the room I'm in, in Gnome's history, I've always had my drink with me, but with Shell, I'll have to leave it outside and come and get it when I want it.
A dock-bar like Cairo or AWN would be a way of replacing an app, but what if I'd want just a normal taskbar?
Another, minor point I'd like to raise; would such a massive rework of the enviorment break compatabilty with the community's previous themes? (IE: Could I go to GNOME Look or GNOME Art, and still expect a theme package to work correctly?) 


On 18/12/09 23:32, gnome-shell-list-request gnome org wrote:

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Today's Topics:

    1. RE: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Mark Curtis)
    2. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Bob Hazard)
    3. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth)
    4. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Ryan Peters)
    5. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth)


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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:47:30 -0500
From: Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>
To:<gnome-shell-list gnome org>
Subject: RE: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:<SNT106-W1545C2634511796A50327FBB850 phx gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"


I don't want to speak for Dante, but considering he says "one click" I'm guessing he has shortcuts in either the top or bottom panel where no such thing exists in GNOME Shell.

Even if you don't want to consider the overlay a click, it is still more mouse movement. Up to the left to activate overlay, then back down to click on shortcut.
Shortcuts on the GNOME Panel have the advantage of infinite height or width as well, this advantage is lost in the overlay.

From: sri ramkrishna me
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:43:39 -0800
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
To: merkinman hotmail com
CC: gnome-shell-list gnome org



2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>







Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...

I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html



Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
  "...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what it takes me one to do now?"

????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.




Precisely why I took him to task.  Back on topic:

In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
Applications->section->App

so that is three clicks.



In gnome-shell method, we have:

* 1 click for common used apps
* 2 clicks for any other apps

I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click.  But if you did, it would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.



Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.

sri

  		 	   		
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:52:15 +0000
From: Bob Hazard<linuxoflondon googlemail com>
To: ????? ?????????<denis cheremisov net>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org, Dant? Ashton
	<mentalomega googlemail com>
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:
	<90e180400912181452l5ccb9fe8ha5e93976e552e569 mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

When I say a few weeks I mean the muscle memory of someone who has
done it the old way a thousand times a day for 15-20 years.

Any change takes getting used to in this situation whether or not it is better.

2009/12/18 ????? ?????????<denis cheremisov net>:

Few weeks to get comfortable? Man, are you crazy?
It's too long and only proves the gnome-shell idea sucks.

2009/12/19 Bob Hazard<linuxoflondon googlemail com>

It's actually more useful to someone with only one workspace because
they tend to have even more overlapping windows.

It only needs one click to switch windows anyway. ?The top left corner
is a big target you can do a very approximate gesture to trigger the
zoom without clicking.

After a while it becomes second nature and I was surprised that it
feels very old fashioned to go back to a flat desktop.

Try Docky if you find the transition uncomfortable but it only takes a
few weeks.

2009/12/18 Dant? Ashton<mentalomega googlemail com>:

Hey all.

I've been watching GNOME Shell for a while, but there is one problem
that I
really can't see being resolved.

How useful is this to someone who uses one desktop? Just one? Never-mind
the
other one, or three, or four...

Why should I, the user, have to perform three extra clicks just to do
what
it takes me one to do now?

There has been less video/photo material to consume then I could safely
make
a judgement on, and if the 'one desktop' problem has been addressed and
solved, I apologize for taking up your time.


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--
? ?????????, ????? ?????????.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:56:50 +0000
From: Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth<mazz0 mazz0 com>
To: Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:
	<394c17690912181456s19271b57wac25cd638d75604 mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Reducing the number of key clicks isn't a gain if it means you have a much
bigger list to look through.  You can't measure usability purely in number
of clicks, or having the categorized menu would never have been an
improvement in the first place.

2009/12/18 Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>



2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>


  Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...


I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell


http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html

Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
  "...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what it
takes me one to do now?"

????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.



Precisely why I took him to task.  Back on topic:

In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
Applications->section->App

so that is three clicks.

In gnome-shell method, we have:

* 1 click for common used apps
* 2 clicks for any other apps

I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click.  But if you did, it
would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.

Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat
scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.

sri


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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:22:39 -0600
From: Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>
To: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:<4B2C0EBF 4070105 sbcglobal net>
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:32:20 +0000
From: Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth<mazz0 mazz0 com>
To: Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:
	<394c17690912181532h28d5210dy3c069d1616083824 mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Good point, it /is/ only two clicks to launch an app from the menu, even if
it's sub-categorized.  I don't really think it can be denied that launching
apps, just like switching between them, is *currently* slower and more
complicated in shell than it is with a panel/dock.  The question is, how can
that be improved?

2009/12/18 Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>


  On 12/18/2009 04:56 PM, Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth wrote:

Reducing the number of key clicks isn't a gain if it means you have a much
bigger list to look through.  You can't measure usability purely in number
of clicks, or having the categorized menu would never have been an
improvement in the first place.

2009/12/18 Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>



  2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>


Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...


I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell


http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html

  Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
  "...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what it
takes me one to do now?"

????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.



Precisely why I took him to task.  Back on topic:

In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
Applications->section->App

so that is three clicks.

In gnome-shell method, we have:

* 1 click for common used apps
* 2 clicks for any other apps

I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click.  But if you did,
it would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.

Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat
scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.

sri


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  That doesn't mean that more clicks means it's more usable, though. In
Gnome-Shell, if I want to launch an application that isn't on my recently
opened applications list, I have a lot more clicks than before.

1. Open Activities (arguably this can be triggered without a click, though)
2. Click "Browse" on the Applications section.
3. Click on the category I want.
4. Sift through a page or two (why the pages!?) to find the application I'm
looking for.

This is not intuitive, takes forever (especially considering the *speed*it opens the menus), and is at least twice as confusing as the method
present in the current Gnome stable release.

Also, I only have two clicks to open an application as I am now.

1. Open the applications menu.
2. Highlight the mouse over a menu and when it pops up (you don't need to
click it, just like in Windows), click the app you want to open.

There are lots of users that can make use of workspaces, but you shouldn't
force them to use them.

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