Re: Official Compliant

Hi Ali,

> I am sick being accused all the time for these things. Tell me one
> person within the GNOME community, be it on IRC, be it on the
> mailinglists or elsewhere who didn't had a bad day and acted bad ? Can
> you name one ? Anyone free from sin should throw the first stone.

Agreed.  We all have our bad days.  But isn't there a difference between
"having a few bad days" and "having a LOT of bad days" ?

> I've seen people on IRC who truly behaved like jerks, I've seen people
> writing on the mailing lists who behaved like jerks.
> This is no excuse for other people to behave like this - no ! but I am
> also terrible sick how you (and the same handful of people I am refering
> to) >>> EXCUSE <<< the rude behaviour of Mark while the same people
> condemn when I or others wrote one bad thing or when I need to steer up
> and justify myself for things never done (again to the same people).

The reason a lot of people excuse Mark's behaviour and chalk it up to
"one bad day" is precisely because 99% of the time Mark has good days. 
And on those good days, he contributes a lot of code, sends helpful
emails, tries to unfuse discussions, and tries to keep lists on topic. 
Rocking ! Pretty much everyone in the community appreciates Mark's work,
and has no problems ignoring the few bad days he has.

It is an objectively measurable criterium that the ratio of rude versus
non-rude mails that Mark has sent to public lists is lower than the ones
I have sent myself, or you have sent.  I have a hard time remembering
the last time Mark was rude, and I have no trouble remembering a bunch
of times I was rude, or you were rude.  Whether I or you was rude
because someone else was rude first is irrelevant :)

You ask for people to not bring up your past behaviour because you've
changed, yet you bring up other's people past behaviour all the time.

You say that if we "condemn" you for writing a bunch of bad things we
should also condemn everyone as soon as they do one bad thing.  You are
measuring with two weights.

If you want people to respect you you will have to change your
behaviour.  It doesn't help anyone to say that everyone else should
change their behaviour towards you.  Why is this a problem for you and
nobody else ?

Everyone is allowed to make mistakes.  Making them over and over and not
learning from them is a bad idea.  One of the mistakes I've made in the
past is to be rude back to you when you were rude.  I have learnt that
that doesn't solve anything, and that is why nothing in this mail can be
perceived as rude towards you (I hope).

Conversely, I think it'd be a good idea if you learnt that people reap
what they sow, and that being rude towards lots of people on lots of
occasions (I think your hate list now comprises at the very least Jeff,
Havoc, Glynn, Mark, and me - a list of which the first four are
respected members of the community),  will make it very hard for anyone
to never ever be rude back to you.

> You call it 'annoying' I call it informing, you call it 'trolling' I
> call it informing. It is important to inform other people about the
> general attitude towards others done by certain individuals.

I agree.  This is important.  Which is why I want to take a moment to
inform other people about the general attitude of those four people on
your hate list.  

Jeff has helped me figure out stuff about GARNOME, encouraged me to work
on GStreamer more with a clear goal for GNOME, gotten me excited at
GUADEC about being a part of GNOME, and generally has been a very good
cheerleader.  (Sure he can be a pain in the ass and his quirky
personality makes him say unappropriate stuff, but that's what Australia
does for you).

Havoc has responded to inquiries from me about a bug I wanted to fix in
the panel which ended up being my first contribution to GNOME.  I
imagine he's already swamped with mails from everyone daily, yet he
still took the time to guide me through what I needed to know.  I see
him do the same thing daily on various lists, and I cannot recall a time
where I have ever thought Havoc to have been rude, on any of these
lists.  Clearly someone working on this as long as he has has learnt the
value of not being rude, and I hope to learn the same :)

Glynn has done more than anyone in GNOME, except maybe Tim, for
organizational issues.  GUADEC's, board, leading discussions, inspiring
people, getting stuff done, and subverting an evil company from the

Mark I have less experience with, but he's also always been helpful, has
answered general questions of mine about how I could do something with
useful suggestions, showing me code he's written handling similar stuff,
and afaict he's also very nice 99% of the time on the internet, and 100%
of the time in person.

There are lots and lots more people in the community I've had pleasant
experiences with.

Now, all of these people have been helpful to me from the first day I
was in the community.  They didn't know me, yet they helped me.  They
didn't feel they needed to be rude to me, or ignore me, and so on.

My experience is one shared by *a lot* of people that have found their
way in.

These four people seem to be pure evil to you, yet lots of people in the
community have nothing but respect for them and are willing to ignore
their occasional bad day.  Why are all of us wrong, and you right ? 
Isn't there a chance that you might be partly wrong ?

>  It is
> impossible to ever work with you people, it's impossible to even bring
> up an opinion without being called a troll,

Lots of people do both of these daily.  Don't you wonder why you get
labeled as a troll more often than others ? Is there a conspiracy
against you ? Do these people have time to plot this conspiracy ?

> > There is nothing to stop you running for the board next year. I would
> > welcome your candidacy, and since GNOME is an open project you have as
> > much chance of being elected as some of the eliteist members of the
> > current Board.
> The entire election is a farce as much as I start to believe the Charta
> is. 2/3 of the people didn't elected at all - a sign how much they care.

So, to sum it up, you feel that:
- GNOME elections are a farce
- the GNOME Charta is a farce
- some people that everyone in the community seems to respect are evil
and rude and elitist
- GNOME choses wrong technical decisions all the time (button order,
GConf, ...)
- these people manage to get elected on to a board that controls GNOME
- they label you as a troll all the time
- they excuse each other's rude behaviour against you all the time
- you feel that these people are each other's friends and that's why
they conspire together
- you are part of more than four communities in which you are a
wellrespected member
- companies profit from the code people write for GNOME without giving
back, and that makes them evil

Exactly what is it that makes you want to be part of the GNOME community
? Why do you stick around if there is nothing you agree with ? Surely
GNOME must be doing something right ? What am I missing ? I know I would
have packed up long ago if I felt this way about GNOME.

Of course, I have quite the contrary experience of GNOME.  These people
are nice to me, I feel part of the community, I love it that companies
sell GNOME, I love it that these people become friends over time, I love
the button order and GConf because they Work and Make Sense, I love that
there is a GNOME Charta which I agree with and feel is held up, I think
it's great that there are board elections.

So I guess I'll stick around GNOME some more.


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<-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*->
I'm emotionally raped by Jesus
<-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*->
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