Re: WIN32 compilation, the spirit of GNU software.

[Hans Breuer <hans breuer org>]

At 16:40 22.08.02 -0400, Tim Ellis wrote:
> > > I would encourage you to do whatever work you can to make the plain
> > > vanilla CVS compile for both Unix and Win32 without one-off tweaks.
> >
> > To me this sounds like pure ignorgance. There is a _native_ win32
> > port of Dia since (dia/ChangeLog) :
>
> It is pure ignorance. I've never compiled or even begun to see what it
> takes to compile the Win32 version of Dia. I'm deferring to the experts on
> this subject.
>
> > From the discussion, I can only guess that "./configure ; make ; make
> install" doesn't work. 
Yupp. And automake and friends don't support (maybe can't) support the
win32 paform that well. That's where cygwin and bash are required _or_
the usage of the toolchain which I assume any serious win32 devleoper
already knows and has. Micro$oft vc. I choose the latter way.

> If Sr. DuPont can make that work, then I guess I'd
> be happier,
me too. But I seriously doubt it will happen.

> regardless of whether I agree with his (or your?) political
> stance on things. I would want "./configure ; make ; make install" to
> work, because technically, that's what I understand, that's what I think
> is a Good Thing, and that's what makes me smile at night.
>
> I don't understand the GTK Win32 port, I don't understand Microsoft build
> systems. I understand Unix, automake, X, and gcc.
>
> So I'm ignorant. This is fine. I won't complain, especially if I can
> build/run Dia the same as I build/run Apache, PostgreSQL, OpenSSH, or
> whatever else I get a wild notion to build and run.
All of the programs you list did no have any graphical user interface,
do they ?

> > But feel free to go right ahead to require an *ix emulation
> > and also an X server to get a restricted version of Dia
> > to run on win32. Only a real moron may also want to let wine 
> > run on top of the X server running on top of cygwin ...
>
> Personally, I don't mind requiring *ix emulation and an X server. Cygwin
> gives us both those things pretty transparently... Am I missing something?
- What about interfacing printers through the platform service
  (on win32 this is GDI).
- Text exchange via clipboard, drag and drop, ...
- Using the standard window manager, instead of requiring an X server
  which is either expensive or of limited functionality or both.
- Using platform filenames e.g. d:\graph\dia instead some 'interesting'
  emulation /D/graph/dia if I recall correctly
- Dynamic install path resoution instead of hardcoding them as common
  on *ix
- Much less Megabyte to install and less programs to configure.
- ...

> Is there some Win32 platform on which Cygwin/X doesn't work?
win 9x (at least there where some serious restrictions). Ok these
are almost platfrom restrictions which in some places hurt native
gtk as well ...

> In what fashion would Dia be restricted? I've run it from a Linux box
> displaying on X running under Cygwin and it appears identical to when it
> displays on X running under Linux... Why would the fact that the Dia
> executable itself is compiled under Win32 change this?
It would not, but what's the benefit to compile it under win32
if you already have access to a *ix platform?

> Where does wine fit in here? Why would I need wine to either compile or
> run Dia in Win32??? Why would I ever even attempt to compile or run wine
> in a Win32 environment at all? 
That are exactly the same questions which I asked myself when reading
Sr. DuPont's mail on same subject. 

> I would hope I could just run Win32 code natively in a Win32 environment.
>
> > BTW: one of the FAQs about the gtk win32 port is it it's 
> > integration with cygwin. It simply has none because gtk+ is 
> > ported natively and nowadays glib includes most of the bits 
> > to make it a real cross platform tookit.
>
> I am aware that GTK has a Win32 port. I don't see how it helps Sr. DuPont
> in his current predicament. 
I don't see that anyone/anything can help him, that's my trouble ...

> Perhaps I'm speaking from ignorance again,
> because I'm just saying what I think I know from reading between the
> lines, but he's trying to take a plain vanilla Dia CVS snapshot and a
> plain vanilla Cygwin install, and then to do a "./configure ; make ; make
> install" and have it work.
>
> At what point does that cease to make sense?
It depends. If you want the Dia port not only as alibi but as real
acceptabe alternative for your coworkers somewhere between
cygwin and th X Server.

If one wants to concentrate on functionality of the toolkit and the
application and not on the toolchain, i.e. for me this is somewhere
between bash and configure ...

        Hans

-------- Hans "at" Breuer "dot" Org -----------
Tell me what you need, and I'll tell you how to 
get along without it.                -- Dilbert