Re: [Q] (and message dragging) [jmayer@rochester.rr.com]

[Jim Mayer <jmayer rochester rr com>]

On 2001.11.09 03:37 Olaf Frączyk wrote:
> On 2001.11.09 04:51:47 +0100 Jim Mayer wrote:
>> Oops... minor correction... you CAN drag multiple messages by 
>> extending the selection with the SHIFT key.  I still think the 
>> behavior is inconsistent with the way selections work on text.
> 
> This is consistient if you compare to other toolkits, (or even MS 
> stuff).

I was about to type up a semi-heated response, but then I decided to 
check what some other applications do.  It turns out that most word 
processors and some spreadsheets work exactly as I described.  Other 
spreadsheets modify their behavior depending on what part of a cell is 
cliced on.  Drawing tools and the email applications that I looked at 
(Mozilla, Outlook, and Outlook Express) all kind of split the 
difference.

For an example of applications that behave consistently and as I 
described, take a look at the word processor and spreadsheet modules of 
a recent OpenOffice beta release.  Spreadsheet cells are exactly 
analagous to word processor characters.  Drag-and-drop is implemented 
by clicking and dragging WITHIN an existing selection.  It works just 
fine.

Microsoft Word behaves the way I described.

In Gnumeric and Excel clicking and dragging selects a range of cells 
(as I described).  Clicking within the middle of a cell in an existing 
selection starts a new selection.  Drag-and-drop is initiated by 
clicking on the border of a cell within an existing selection.  The 
cursor changes as the pointer moves over the different parts of the 
cell to indicate which action will be taken.  I find what OpenOffice 
does to be more intuitive.  I also suspect that the OpenOffice behavior 
is better from an accessibility point of view, since the Gnumeric/Excel 
behavior requires pretty fine coordination.

The email applications I looked at all do the following (which is 
different from what balsa does):

(1) a click and drag on an unselected message header selects that 
message and initiates a drag-and-drop.

(2) a click and drag on a selected message header initiates a 
drag-and-drop with the entire group.

Balsa does (1) but resets the selection in the second case.  I don't 
think that is correct.

Drawing applications act just like the mail tools, but have a seperate 
notion of selecting all of the objects within a bounding box.

> 
>> One of the UI design rules that makes the most sense to me is that 
>> similar user actions should, as much as possible, have similar 
>> results.
> 
> I think similar actions to similar widgets, not to everything.

Well, I (and many human factors folks, I suspect) would argue that 
selection with a RANGE of items should be treated analagously 
independely of whether the items are characters, spreadsheet cells, or 
message headers.  Disconnected items (e.g. drawing objects) have to be 
treated differently.

> 
>> In this case, since clicking and holding the mouse down selects 
>> text, it should also select messages.
>> 
> This won't work well. How would you distinguish d'n'd and selection?
> Anyway, I think that without changing gtk it wouldn't be possible.
> 

The same way that OpenOffice does it... a click and drag outside of an 
existing selection selects a range.  A click and drag within an 
existing selection initiates drag-and-drop.  A single click within an 
existing selection resets the selection.

> Regards
> Olaf

Unfortunately, while I think I have a good case from a human factors 
point of view, it is probably more important to be consistent with 
other mail applications.

With regars to gtk, doesn't the PAN newsreader also use gtk?  Pan 
selects groups of messages exactly as I've described, but does not 
support drag-and-drop.

-- Jim

P.S. You replied directly to me.  Would you mind if I send a copy of 
this message back to the mailing list?