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Re: [orca-list] Vim, is it usable for us?

Vi dates back to the days when keyboards were not at all standardized. Arrow keys didn't always exist, forget 
page up and down and home/end. That's why editors like Vi and emacs use strange combinations and letters to 
move, and why they have different modes.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Mann <rmann technologyisawesome com>
To: Rastislav Kish <rastislav kish gmail com>, "orca-list gnome org" <orca-list gnome org>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 02:43:37 +0000
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Vim, is it usable for us?


I’m just curious, why do people like using VI or VIM instead of other editors like Nano or Emacs?  Maybe I 
don’t understand VI because I’ve used editors all of my life that allowed me to use the arrow keys to move 
around.  Whenever I try to read about how to use VI, it seems like you need to use weird control 
combinations to move around documents.  What is the benefit of this way of doing things instead of just 
using the arrow keys?  Why does there need to be separate modes for commands and writing text?

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: orca-list <orca-list-bounces gnome org> on behalf of Rastislav Kish via orca-list <orca-list gnome 
org>
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 2:14:25 PM
To: orca-list gnome org <orca-list gnome org>
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Vim, is it usable for us?

Hello Janina,

heh, on my machine, the gui is on f7. Took me few reboots to find that
out. :)


Technically, the problems I face are not related to tts, as Fenrir uses
espeak directly by default, so it doesn't clash with Orca.


The more problematic part is keyboard, as Fenrir steals it for itself
with Evdev, Some keys like Super for example are not available in gui,
and I guess not even in other ttys.


As for using 23 consoles, that makes relation 1:23 of gui and console
environments. Due to your usage of them as "windows", I guess most of
your work is done in console, isn't it?

Do you like tui over gui in general, for tasks like e-mails reading, web
surfing, coding, etc. or does your work require it?

I'm asking as someone raised on Windows, a heavily gui based
environment, I've thought for long time that tui was something used only
because a lack of usable gui. After I've got some more experiences in
programming, I've understood terminal as an efficient way of managing
servers and similar devices, but until now, I didn't view it as an
environment usable for daily life (study, work and fun combined together).

That of course doesn't mean, that it's not possible or good, I've just
never thought about it, neither did I try it. :)

So the 1:23 relation actually piqued my interest.


As for ctrl and alt keys on the left and right, they're not the same in
gui either. Or at least, on my machine, the right alt is altgr, although
it probably depends on OS, as Windows for example always decomposes the
key to ctrl and alt.


As for the script, what exactly is it doing? Is it responsible for
logging you in to those 23 ttys, or does it also start respective apps
in them (if they are event-based of course)?


On Windows, my Keyjutsu project is capable of very efficient computer
usage, jumping to windows of particular type without any effort is one
of the things it can do in matter of eye-blink, although I've never
thought about it.

Sadly there seems to be no alternative for it on Linux, and building one
far more complicated (at least if one doesn't know the Linux event
system and the ways to control it :) ).


Best regards


Rastislav


Dòa 3. 9. 2020 o 7:15 Janina Sajka napísal(a):

Hi Again, Rastislav:

You should be able to use both at once, i.e. switching back and forth
between console and graphical environments all day long.

Ctrl+Alt+Fn is your friend. Usually these days the graphical environment
is at Ctrl+Alt+F1, and you should have console environments at
Ctrl+Alt+F[2-6]. These will each require login, and you can login as any
user on your system.

The problem is that they speak through different TTS supporting
architectures, and these can clash so that it can be difficult to have
speech working in both environs. The safest way to avoid this is to use
separate sound devices for graphical and console. And, you might even
want a third device for non TTS audio.

On my computers I have the following sequence when I boot up:

1.)   I get a console login prompt on tty1 with console speech already
started.

2.)   After logging in, if everything seems correct, i.e. no problems
to solve, I launch an additional 23 consoles using the app openvt in a
script like so:

sudo /root/bin/mycons

This is because openvt wants to run as root, but I want the consoles
opened as my normal user, janina. This works because the right side Ctrl
and Alt keys are different from the left side ones in the
console--unlike the graphical environment, so that Ctrl+Alt+F1 using
Ctrl and Alt to the right of the spacebar will open tty 13, not tty 1.

Yes, I have very specific use for all these consoles. I always smile
when someone on one of my teleconferences says something like: "wait, I
lost that window ..." I never lose windows because I have defined
functions on specific ttys.

Let me know if you'd like my script.

3.)   Next I run startx after killing Speakup in tty1 (which sources
.xinitrc) to get my graphical Orca environment.

This is not too much work to boot, imo, because this environment tends
to remain booted for days and even weeks at a time.

Best,

Janina



Orca screen reader developers writes:

Hello,

this may be a stupid question, but I was thinking, how do these console
screenreaders work?

Can they be used in normal terminal in graphical system, or does the OS have
to be a fully console installation?

And if they run in the graphical environment, does it collide with Orca?

or is it possible to use both at once?


Best regards


Rastislav


Dòa 30. 8. 2020 o 23:39 Storm Dragon napísal(a):

Howdy,

Vim is being used to compose this message. It is, in my opinion, the
best text editor on the planet. Be warned though, if you do get into
using it and have to use a graphical text editor for some reason, you'll
most likely get a file with a lit of A :w, etc in it lol.

I use it with Fenrir, most often in the console. It has spellcheck, and
all sorts of nifty features including backups, macros, etc.

You may need to disable the ruler by typing the following:

:set noruler

If you need to know line and column information, press control+g to have
it briefly shown on the bottom line.

you can make the noruler setting permanent by adding it to your ~/.vimrc.

Thanks,
Storm

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 04:56:33PM -0400, Orca-list wrote:

Yes, Vim works well with a screen reader. You'll probably achieve
better results with Fenrir or Speakup than with Orca in
Gnome-Terminal, though. It also works well with a braille display,
which is what I generally use.

It's easy to apply the editor commands once you've read the text to
decide what changes you want to make. I tend to use Emacs for
serious writing projects, but that just reflects my preference
rather than any limitation of Vim.

On 8/30/20 4:41 PM, Rastislav Kish via orca-list wrote:

Hi folks,

during my Linux adventures, I couldn't have missed possibly one
of the most legendary Linux tools, Vim.

Vim's philosophy of writing and editing text with a language was
completely new for me, so I have quite enjoyed learning about
it.


However, after reading some introductory texts and few
experiments, I have two questions:

* how usable is Vim with Orca? I have noticed various rather
strange behaviors like reading currently missed word when
navigating character by character or reading a line in somewhat
shuffled order when I approach it from the next line. H, J, K
and L keys doesn't seem to work at all, I have to use arrow
keys, I don't know, whether this is function of Vim or Orca.

* Is Vim potentially useful for blind people? I can imagine,
that when a sighted person sees the whole layout of a page, he /
she has an imagination in his / her head what he / she wants to
select, delete or replace, and thus a way to express it wia a
special language can be very handy. However, blind people don't
have this ability, we rather know our current position and drag
the selection from it, until we find the ending point, as our
view is limited to max. one line at once.

So, the question is, is the ability to define operations with a
language still that advantageous under these circumstances? On a
graphical system, would you use Vim over a traditional editor
like Pluma, or something similar with plugins, and if yes why?


Best regards


Rastislav


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Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
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