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Re: [orca-list] Vim, is it usable for us?


Also, in the old days, vi is installed by default on any and all *IX
distributions, even on the most minimal installation

--David


-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list <orca-list-bounces gnome org> On Behalf Of Rob Hudson
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2020 9:33 PM
To: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Vim, is it usable for us?

Vi dates back to the days when keyboards were not at all standardized. Arrow
keys didn't always exist, forget page up and down and home/end. That's why
editors like Vi and emacs use strange combinations and letters to move, and
why they have different modes.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Mann <rmann technologyisawesome com>
To: Rastislav Kish <rastislav kish gmail com>, "orca-list gnome org"
<orca-list gnome org>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 02:43:37 +0000
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Vim, is it usable for us?


Im just curious, why do people like using VI or VIM instead of other

editors like Nano or Emacs?  Maybe I dont understand VI because Ive used
editors all of my life that allowed me to use the arrow keys to move around.
Whenever I try to read about how to use VI, it seems like you need to use
weird control combinations to move around documents.  What is the benefit of
this way of doing things instead of just using the arrow keys?  Why does
there need to be separate modes for commands and writing text?


Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> 
________________________________
From: orca-list <orca-list-bounces gnome org> on behalf of Rastislav 
Kish via orca-list <orca-list gnome org>
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 2:14:25 PM
To: orca-list gnome org <orca-list gnome org>
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Vim, is it usable for us?

Hello Janina,

heh, on my machine, the gui is on f7. Took me few reboots to find that 
out. :)


Technically, the problems I face are not related to tts, as Fenrir 
uses espeak directly by default, so it doesn't clash with Orca.


The more problematic part is keyboard, as Fenrir steals it for itself 
with Evdev, Some keys like Super for example are not available in gui, 
and I guess not even in other ttys.


As for using 23 consoles, that makes relation 1:23 of gui and console 
environments. Due to your usage of them as "windows", I guess most of 
your work is done in console, isn't it?

Do you like tui over gui in general, for tasks like e-mails reading, 
web surfing, coding, etc. or does your work require it?

I'm asking as someone raised on Windows, a heavily gui based 
environment, I've thought for long time that tui was something used 
only because a lack of usable gui. After I've got some more 
experiences in programming, I've understood terminal as an efficient 
way of managing servers and similar devices, but until now, I didn't 
view it as an environment usable for daily life (study, work and fun

combined together).


That of course doesn't mean, that it's not possible or good, I've just 
never thought about it, neither did I try it. :)

So the 1:23 relation actually piqued my interest.


As for ctrl and alt keys on the left and right, they're not the same 
in gui either. Or at least, on my machine, the right alt is altgr, 
although it probably depends on OS, as Windows for example always 
decomposes the key to ctrl and alt.


As for the script, what exactly is it doing? Is it responsible for 
logging you in to those 23 ttys, or does it also start respective apps 
in them (if they are event-based of course)?


On Windows, my Keyjutsu project is capable of very efficient computer 
usage, jumping to windows of particular type without any effort is one 
of the things it can do in matter of eye-blink, although I've never 
thought about it.

Sadly there seems to be no alternative for it on Linux, and building 
one far more complicated (at least if one doesn't know the Linux event 
system and the ways to control it :) ).


Best regards


Rastislav


Dra 3. 9. 2020 o 7:15 Janina Sajka napmsal(a):

Hi Again, Rastislav:

You should be able to use both at once, i.e. switching back and 
forth between console and graphical environments all day long.

Ctrl+Alt+Fn is your friend. Usually these days the graphical 
Ctrl+Alt+environment
is at Ctrl+Alt+F1, and you should have console environments at
Ctrl+Alt+F[2-6]. These will each require login, and you can login as 
Ctrl+Alt+any
user on your system.

The problem is that they speak through different TTS supporting 
architectures, and these can clash so that it can be difficult to 
have speech working in both environs. The safest way to avoid this 
is to use separate sound devices for graphical and console. And, you 
might even want a third device for non TTS audio.

On my computers I have the following sequence when I boot up:

1.)   I get a console login prompt on tty1 with console speech already
started.

2.)   After logging in, if everything seems correct, i.e. no problems
to solve, I launch an additional 23 consoles using the app openvt in 
a script like so:

sudo /root/bin/mycons

This is because openvt wants to run as root, but I want the consoles 
opened as my normal user, janina. This works because the right side 
Ctrl and Alt keys are different from the left side ones in the 
console--unlike the graphical environment, so that Ctrl+Alt+F1 using 
Ctrl and Alt to the right of the spacebar will open tty 13, not tty 1.

Yes, I have very specific use for all these consoles. I always smile 
when someone on one of my teleconferences says something like: 
"wait, I lost that window ..." I never lose windows because I have 
defined functions on specific ttys.

Let me know if you'd like my script.

3.)   Next I run startx after killing Speakup in tty1 (which sources
.xinitrc) to get my graphical Orca environment.

This is not too much work to boot, imo, because this environment 
tends to remain booted for days and even weeks at a time.

Best,

Janina



Orca screen reader developers writes:

Hello,

this may be a stupid question, but I was thinking, how do these 
console screenreaders work?

Can they be used in normal terminal in graphical system, or does 
the OS have to be a fully console installation?

And if they run in the graphical environment, does it collide with

Orca?


or is it possible to use both at once?


Best regards


Rastislav


Dra 30. 8. 2020 o 23:39 Storm Dragon napmsal(a):

Howdy,

Vim is being used to compose this message. It is, in my opinion, 
the best text editor on the planet. Be warned though, if you do 
get into using it and have to use a graphical text editor for some 
reason, you'll most likely get a file with a lit of A :w, etc in it

lol.


I use it with Fenrir, most often in the console. It has 
spellcheck, and all sorts of nifty features including backups, macros,

etc.


You may need to disable the ruler by typing the following:

:set noruler

If you need to know line and column information, press control+g 
to have it briefly shown on the bottom line.

you can make the noruler setting permanent by adding it to your

~/.vimrc.


Thanks,
Storm

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 04:56:33PM -0400, Orca-list wrote:

Yes, Vim works well with a screen reader. You'll probably achieve 
better results with Fenrir or Speakup than with Orca in 
Gnome-Terminal, though. It also works well with a braille 
display, which is what I generally use.

It's easy to apply the editor commands once you've read the text 
to decide what changes you want to make. I tend to use Emacs for 
serious writing projects, but that just reflects my preference 
rather than any limitation of Vim.

On 8/30/20 4:41 PM, Rastislav Kish via orca-list wrote:

Hi folks,

during my Linux adventures, I couldn't have missed possibly one 
of the most legendary Linux tools, Vim.

Vim's philosophy of writing and editing text with a language was 
completely new for me, so I have quite enjoyed learning about 
it.


However, after reading some introductory texts and few 
experiments, I have two questions:

* how usable is Vim with Orca? I have noticed various rather 
strange behaviors like reading currently missed word when 
navigating character by character or reading a line in somewhat 
shuffled order when I approach it from the next line. H, J, K 
and L keys doesn't seem to work at all, I have to use arrow 
keys, I don't know, whether this is function of Vim or Orca.

* Is Vim potentially useful for blind people? I can imagine, 
that when a sighted person sees the whole layout of a page, he / 
she has an imagination in his / her head what he / she wants to 
select, delete or replace, and thus a way to express it wia a 
special language can be very handy. However, blind people don't 
have this ability, we rather know our current position and drag 
the selection from it, until we find the ending point, as our 
view is limited to max. one line at once.

So, the question is, is the ability to define operations with a 
language still that advantageous under these circumstances? On a 
graphical system, would you use Vim over a traditional editor 
like Pluma, or something similar with plugins, and if yes why?


Best regards


Rastislav


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Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
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https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: 
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: 
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: 
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
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