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Re: [orca-list] sound through pulse audio running as root may soon be fixed

Actually, before I start agreeiing with folks I do want to bring one bit of news to your attention. 
There is a blind guy some of you know of whos initials are T.S., who I believe has actually gotten yasr 
working pretty well on macs. 
Others have also played with this, and may or may not be progressing. I don't remember why it was a bit of a 
pain to get going, one pretty smart guy I 
know mentioned the issue to me once I think. 
Anyway, I certainly must agree that we should not waste our time comparing apples to oranges. 
Most of us are here because we recognize areas where Linux shines, and is more comfortable for us than other 
OSs we have tried, some are just 
experiementers and like to try everything on the market or other wise available in cyberspace, and at least a 
few people are using Linux because they 
muost for their work whether or not they like it. 
To kKendell, you try hard, that's a good thing, but remember that not all people are logical beings, and even 
the logical among us often have 
prejudices, both positive and negative that distort our logic. Not the least of these is our own self image, 
a desire to be liked, (or in some cases 
disliked), etc. Some folks will repeat things they know nothing about just to try and get some aproval from 
others. 
Others will follow the masses to try and fit in, where some will try to llive up to their self image as 
rebels.    
The only thing I can say to those who care about winning people over to Linux is you must remember that If 
someone is coming from a history with another 
OS they may well be working around accessibility issues with out even remembering it, and likely they do not 
remember their strugles when 
they first  picked up a windows box.
If we paint an overly rosy picture of Linux then of course people will expect the imposible and be 
disappointed when they do not get it.
There are things one can do in Linux that one can not do, or can not do as well in other opperating 
systems,and Linux ideas are adopted and integrated 
in to other OSs also.
    There is an old saying in the U.S. that goes something like:
You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool 
all of the people all of the time. 
There is of inverse truth the we must live with that if it were in a popular saying would go something like:
You can teach all of the people some of the time, (OK, let's say most of the people), some of the people all 
of the time, but you sure as bleep can't 
teach all of the people all of the time.
I think You refuted your own argument well, Kendell, so this discussion can peter out, but the bottom line is 
while it is at times useful to evaluate 
something available on another platform that does not mean we can always bring it to fruition on Linux. 
As I've said before, where posible we should try and sync some keybindings between screenreaders, and 
certainly not reject anything just because apple 
or microsoft or who ever did it first, but we should never leave something on the table just because it can 
only be done, or only will be done in Linux, 
nor if that is something our current users want put it on the back burner to try and make the Linux 
accessiblity experience more like the windows one, 
or again, what ever other one you can think of.
I think among blind folks at least, and I will say among a great many Lnux users there is a great willingness 
to help those just coming on board, or 
even those interested in giving Linux a fair try. 
To spend time worrying about those who are not willing to give Linux an honest review, is pointless, and I 
for one am not interested in hearing about 
what's wrong with those who use windows or osx from Linux users than I am interested in reading the endless 
flamewars on poptech sites between the 
fanboys and girls of other opperating systems. 
I spent longer typing than I should have, hope it is inteligible/no time to proofread and edit...lol.

-- 
     B.H.
   Registerd Linux User 521886


  Christopher Chaltain wrote:
Mon, May 09, 2016 at 06:38:23PM -0500


This message below confuses me, since it was Kendell who said "The
reason I'm making such a big deal of this is because this has been
an embarrassing issue for all of us Linux accessibility advocates
being unable to fix an issue any windows user would immediately
point out as a show stopper even if they had no idea what speakup
was or what it did." I'm not sure why Kendell would write a strongly
worded message in opposition to someone who was agreeing with him. I
remembered Kendell's statement since I was going to say something,
but I chose not to since Kyle's statement was so much better than
anything I would have said. IMHO, I just don't think we should worry
so much about what Windows users will think. Let's make Linux
accessibility the best it can be regardless of the bar set by
Windows.

On 09/05/16 17:46, kendell clark wrote:

hi
I have to agree with kyle. I was going to send a rather strongly worded
message to this effect, but I'll settle for this. Windows hasn't had a
text console since the windows 98 days, and when that was indeed the
case microsoft made no effort to make such accessible. Users were
expected to purchase, at considerable expense, access products like jaws
for dos, asap, etc. If ms had a builtin screenreader, I can't remember
if it first showed up in win 95 or 2000, it would only read the
graphical interface, and even then only certain programs. Android might,
I'm not sure, have a concept of a text console, but if so it's likely
limited to terminal apps running inside android, which the builtin
screen reader will read. IOS and OSX? Don't make me laugh. They have
command line support, of course, but only through terminal, which is
builtin to the mac and only runs from within osx. I think you might be
able to get to single user mode in a mac, I'm not positive because I
don't know nearly as much about mac as I do about linux, but voiceOver
won't read it, of that I'm sure. This is most definitely a problem that
should be fixed, but coming on hear and saying that windows users would
look down on us for not being able to do it when they can't either isn't
going to accomplish anything. Linux is not, and has never been perfect,
and anyone who leads people to think otherwise is a fool. It has it's
issues like any other OS, yes, including those vaunted windows and mac
operating systems. If I ever lead anyone to think linux is perfect, than
I've been a fool as well, I am not excluding myself. It's definitely
possible, sometimes I get a bit overzealous in my preaching, lol.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Kyle wrote:

ChromeOS, Android, iOS, MacOS and Windows users would find having
trouble running text only consoles at the same time as the graphical
desktop to be unacceptable? I'm sorry, but although this is indeed a
problem that needs fixing, the idea that users of other operating
systems that know nothing of a text only console find it an
unacceptable lack of accessibility in Linux when it doesn't work as
expected is simply preposterous at best. Please note that I didn't say
it isn't a problem for some, but it's nothing a Windows, MacOS,
ChromeOS Android or iOS user would even know about, let alone care
about. It's only system administrators and shell users who would even
know that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Of all these
other mentioned operating systems, ChromeOS is the only one I am aware
of that even has an available text only console, and it has no spoken
output whatsoever. So in attempting to identify the problem that needs
to be addressed, we should never resort to false or baseless claims
regarding the state of Linux accessibility or how users of other
operating systems would feel upon using a Linux desktop for the first
time.

Sent from the new power generation
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orca-list gnome org
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Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org



-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
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Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

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