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Howdy,
I think the correct way would be to run the screenreaders as a normal user too (like yasr and orca does). maybe its also better in terms of security. But what have to be done for doing that I have not enough knowledge so I ll better be quite XD. Maybe there is a good reason that they run as root. Anywhay, I also like the idea from Peter to transport the sound via an socket to the user. Thats a simple solution for single user systems. cheers chrys Am 10.05.2016 um 11:38 schrieb Michał Zegan: Well, from what I know about architecture of pulseaudio, it is not a pulseaudio bug unless you think that pulseaudio's architecture is itself a bug. The whole feature that causes problems is that pa runs as user. Unless pa could have something to address that, but it may be more of a thing systemd will do. W dniu 10.05.2016 o 02:57, kendell clark pisze:hi Definitely agree about the windows user. My main motivation for trying to fix it is because since I develop sonar, I try to make it easy for a blind user to use it, no matter what they might want to do. That includes console speech. But when the speakup people don't want to fix their own program because they don't like pulse audio, the pulse audio people say it's not their bug and the brltty people insist it is a pulse bug ... it's a circle I'm caught in. yes, they're definitely people. Just like you're a person who sometimes uses windows and or apple. I try to accomodate everyone by putting software in my distro to do whatever it is you might want to do. Taking you as an example, I have the best and most accessible software I could find to manage apple devices. I don't know how good it is because I don't own one, but it's there. I happen to agree with kyle and luke. Screen reader should never run as root. Speakup and brltty could easily get what they need without running as root. But it's going to take changes in several components to pull it off, and I hope it succeeds. So I'm excited and hope luke can fix these issues so that a console screen reader will work as easily as orca does now. Thanks Kendell Clark On 5/9/2016 7:37 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:I don't get too bent out of shape over what some mythical Windows user might think, and this definitely isn't a motivation for me to ask for a change in Linux. I guess open source developers are also people too. On 09/05/16 19:32, kendell clark wrote:hi I pointed that out because any windows user seems to take any linux issue as a sign that it's not worth using, and their own platform is. They don't have any idea what speakup is, what a text console is, all they hear is that something in linux doesn't work and presumably it does work in windows. I am not a windows expert. I've used it, but I don't believe it has a text console. Mac I know little about, it might. If it does, I don't think the builtin screen reader can read it. Android ... I really don't know. It has a terminal, I know that but I don't know if there are ways to get around it to the actual shell underneath and if it's accessible. It is definitely embarrassing, not being able to fix an issue people suffer from daily. Not many people use console screen readers but they should be able to without giving up functionality or jumping through a ton of hoops to do so. They can't in windows because it doesn't have a text console. They can in linux if they know enough about how the underlying system works to make it work, and that's unacceptable. I didn't have any luck getting the pulse audio people to care but as a side effect, I did get luke to agree to start the ball rolling in the systemd camp. He thinks all of this stuff can get fixed by making speakup and brltty run in userspace, under logind, which will control the permissions of the files they need access to in order to work. This sounds a lot better than them running as root all the time. I don't have any idea how long this will take but not having to deal with "its your bug." "no it's your bug" is a huge weight off my shoulders. Sometimes open source developers act like children. Thanks Kendell Clark Christopher Chaltain wrote:This message below confuses me, since it was Kendell who said "The reason I'm making such a big deal of this is because this has been an embarrassing issue for all of us Linux accessibility advocates being unable to fix an issue any windows user would immediately point out as a show stopper even if they had no idea what speakup was or what it did." I'm not sure why Kendell would write a strongly worded message in opposition to someone who was agreeing with him. I remembered Kendell's statement since I was going to say something, but I chose not to since Kyle's statement was so much better than anything I would have said. IMHO, I just don't think we should worry so much about what Windows users will think. Let's make Linux accessibility the best it can be regardless of the bar set by Windows. On 09/05/16 17:46, kendell clark wrote:hi I have to agree with kyle. I was going to send a rather strongly worded message to this effect, but I'll settle for this. Windows hasn't had a text console since the windows 98 days, and when that was indeed the case microsoft made no effort to make such accessible. Users were expected to purchase, at considerable expense, access products like jaws for dos, asap, etc. If ms had a builtin screenreader, I can't remember if it first showed up in win 95 or 2000, it would only read the graphical interface, and even then only certain programs. Android might, I'm not sure, have a concept of a text console, but if so it's likely limited to terminal apps running inside android, which the builtin screen reader will read. IOS and OSX? Don't make me laugh. They have command line support, of course, but only through terminal, which is builtin to the mac and only runs from within osx. I think you might be able to get to single user mode in a mac, I'm not positive because I don't know nearly as much about mac as I do about linux, but voiceOver won't read it, of that I'm sure. This is most definitely a problem that should be fixed, but coming on hear and saying that windows users would look down on us for not being able to do it when they can't either isn't going to accomplish anything. Linux is not, and has never been perfect, and anyone who leads people to think otherwise is a fool. It has it's issues like any other OS, yes, including those vaunted windows and mac operating systems. If I ever lead anyone to think linux is perfect, than I've been a fool as well, I am not excluding myself. It's definitely possible, sometimes I get a bit overzealous in my preaching, lol. Thanks Kendell Clark Kyle wrote:ChromeOS, Android, iOS, MacOS and Windows users would find having trouble running text only consoles at the same time as the graphical desktop to be unacceptable? I'm sorry, but although this is indeed a problem that needs fixing, the idea that users of other operating systems that know nothing of a text only console find it an unacceptable lack of accessibility in Linux when it doesn't work as expected is simply preposterous at best. Please note that I didn't say it isn't a problem for some, but it's nothing a Windows, MacOS, ChromeOS Android or iOS user would even know about, let alone care about. It's only system administrators and shell users who would even know that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Of all these other mentioned operating systems, ChromeOS is the only one I am aware of that even has an available text only console, and it has no spoken output whatsoever. So in attempting to identify the problem that needs to be addressed, we should never resort to false or baseless claims regarding the state of Linux accessibility or how users of other operating systems would feel upon using a Linux desktop for the first time. Sent from the new power generation _______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list gnome org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/ GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org_______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list gnome org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/ GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org_______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list gnome org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/ GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org_______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list gnome org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/ GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
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