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Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Touch/phone

I agree. I'd live with many shortcomings and would try to do my best to improve accessibility on Ubuntu phone. And yes I'd prefer orca to be the screen reader of choice. For me personally it comes down to a view things. One of them is the meaning of the word Ubuntu. It so often is advertised that it should be used by everyone so it should be included in the principle that accessibility absolutely needs to be build in! Another thing for me is that Android is getting more and more closed down. Bit by bit the open-source stuff is replaced by googles own implementations. But the most important reason why I personally would go for an Ubuntu phone or at least why I so desperately want it to accessible is the possibility to have choice! And it would be badass af cause to ssh into my phone again.
I did so with my Nokia N900 where I had a script that read text messages to me with espeak. However that was definitly not usible when completely blind. So after Maemo there could be a new oportunity that this time we should take!
I said it once and I will again: I'd work my ass off for that but sadly I don't have the knowledge. At least yet. 

Am 24.09.2015 um 23:52 schrieb kendell clark:

hi Alex, all
Oh yeah, I ran into this problem myself. The only android I ever have
had was a kyocera hydro, which came installed with ice cream sandwich.
Ice cream sandwich was the first version with the explore by touch
functionality, but it was still a bit rough. Trying to remember what 4.1
was called, for some reason I'm thinking jelly something, but anyway, it
was supposed to be a lot better, and 4.2 even better still, but like
alex, I couldn't get the new version. I looked around for an alternative
rom, because sometimes you can get newer versions that way, but
literally no one in android land was supporting my device. I did find a
way to root it, but it required windows. I looked around for ages trying
to find a linux way of doing it, but just couldn't, so had to plug the
thing into mellisa's windows box, get the drivers from kyocera, then run
the rooting program. That turned me, not off of android, but that phone,
and I shortly got rid of it. All that said, my personal opinion is that
I'd rather use android than an iPhone, not because of any flaw in IOS,
but because it's linux, and I'm partial to linux. Plus, they're a lot
cheaper than an iPhone.To bring this back on topic, if ubuntu touch ever
implements accessibility, regardless of what form it takes, I'll jump on
it. I'd prefer it use orca though, just because joanie does such a
wonderful job, it seems a shame to re-invent the wheel.

Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/24/2015 02:31 PM, Alex Midence wrote:

I should've clarified the versions, my bad.  It was back in 2011.  The phone I bought was a Motorola with 
Android 2.11.  What really sucked is that the manufacturer had put a cap on upgrades on the device so I 
couldn't get the 2.2 version which was said to have fixed a lot of the stuff I was dealing with.  My 
intention was not to mislead or vilify Android.  I believe I did mention that I was sure Android had come a 
long way since then.  I wouldn't entertain a Kindle otherwise as a possible tablet purchase in the future.  
The point I was trying to make is that Apple has a dedicated following because of the fine job they did with 
their devices at a time when the open source alternative was often quite unusable.  Obviously, their 
motivations will be far more financial than philanthropic but, that's part of a free market economy.  I'm 
personally OK with that.

Alex M

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Chaltain [mailto:chaltain gmail com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 8:56 PM
To: Alex Midence; 'kendell clark'; 'Dennis Westphal'
Cc: 'Orca-list'
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Touch/phone

I can't argue with anyone's experience on Android, but I can assure you that the experience below is not 
typical of Android today. We have no idea what device or version of Android are being referred to below, but 
I got a Nexus 7 in the summer of 2014 running Android 4.2 on it. I quickly upgraded to Android 4.4 and last 
winter moved up to Android 5.0 followed shortly by Android 5.1.

My learning curve was comparable to that of the iPhone. I also could use the launcher that came with the 
tablet as well as Chrome, the browser, and both the Mail and Gmail apps. Google Calendar on Android is my 
preferred calendar and ditto for Google Keep for notes. I've since changed to a different launcher, email 
client and browser, although I didn't have to. Android will let you change default apps, which you can't do 
in IOS. Android also supports widgets, which gives you a quicker way to get to a lot of information.

I'm not saying that Android is better than IOS. I still have an iPhone myself, and I'm not sure if my next 
phone will be an Android phone or if I'll stick with an iPhone. My only point is that you shouldn't base your 
opinion of a platform on a message like the one below which is obviously based on a platform that's changed a 
lot since this unfortunate experience.

I agree Apple deserves a lot of credit for it's commitment to accessibility. I also get the fact that someone 
could be loyal to Apple for getting smart phone accessibility right before Google did. I also agree with the 
point about needing to be more objective.

Although I agree accessibility is a key feature when a blind person is considering a device, but just as 
sighted people consider many different aspects of a device, features unrelated to accessibility may be 
appealing to someone who might prefer Android or even Ubuntu Touch. I know I'm willing to put up with a few 
accessibility short comings if it means I get to replace my battery, use a memory card, change speech 
synthesizers, use different default apps, have access to widgets and so on. I'd be willing to put up with 
even more shortcomings if I could run Ubuntu Touch and Orca on a smart phone. Of course, I'd expect Ubuntu 
Touch to be working to catching up to these other platforms, but I'd be willing to wait and help contribute 
to it's development.


On 09/23/2015 08:25 AM, Alex Midence wrote:

I get that you are bitter but, you need to be objective about some of
these things.  Apple is respected for its accomplishments in
accessibility for good reason.  The experience is stable and
intuitive.  It ought to be.  You pay out the nose for it.  I had an
android device once.  The a11y on it was so broken I couldn't even
hang up on someone when I was done with the call.  The browser
experience was horrible unless you went out and got a special browser
put out by a blind products developer.  Same with the e-mail.  Even
then, you didn't have full functionality.  Calendar?  No way, totally
busted.  I understand there has been some improvement since then but I
will never forget the huge letdown I experienced when I bought my
Android phone.  What made it even worse is that the accessibility
solution was thought up and implemented by an actual blind developer.
And the learning curve just to use the device?  Insane!  I must've
spent like two days just trying to figure out how the stup

id thing worked.  Who in the world has time for such nonsense?  I even had to get a special dialer to make 
calls, the most basic of functions for a phone.  I had it for a few months so, I did get decently proficient 
at using it but was never truly happy with it.  I wound up losing it one day which turned out to be a 
wonderful thing.

Enter my iPhone.  I did have to get sighted assistance to turn on the accessibility features.  From there, though, I 
was browsing the web, e-mailing, setting up my calendar, texting, chatting, skyping and playing music in no time.  No 
special browser, e-mail client or dialer needed.  You used the built-in stuff right out of the box.  The same stuff 
everyone else used, I used.  Now, I don't know what you mean when you say you don't like the "Apple culture" 
or anything but, these people won my business fair and square.  They created a product I could use right out of the box 
easily, intuitively and efficiently with a minimum of frustration.  I even have a toggle switch to turn my special 
software off and pass the thing to one of my kids for them to play games on.  The idea of being able to share my 
technology with sighted members of my family was unheard of to me when I was younger.

If a touch phone using Ubuntu can give that kind of experience, I'm all for it.  I think it's a long way away 
from it though.

My two cents,
Alex M




-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of
kendell clark
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 6:45 AM
To: Dennis Westphal
Cc: Orca-list
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Ubuntu Touch/phone

hi
Dennis, I couldn't have said it better myself. Accessibility is a basic right that should have been included 
at the start of the project.
Designed in, rather than bolted on later after enough people complain.
That being said, not even apple, which for some reason is held up as the accessibility champion did this, so 
no company is perfect. Not even linux did this, though they were fairly fast at implementing accessibility 
for the text console, even if getting it going with a hardware synth was a pita.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/23/2015 06:35 AM, Dennis Westphal wrote:

Well that is  real miss step in my opinion that the Ubuntu Developers didnt include accessibility from the 
start of the project. However it still is in the early stages thats why I wanted to know if it would be 
possible to get orca running and make Ubuntu Phone usible for usable for us.

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 23.09.2015 um 12:08 schrieb kendell clark <coffeekingms gmail com>:

hi
Don't take me too seriously when I get like this. I'm a little
bitter when it comes to us being beneath notice. I've lived in the
windows culture for so long despite me having switched to linux 4 years ago.
Blind agencies extatically point out the advantages of whatever
platform gives them the most kickbacks, perks and endorcements,
while conveniently ignoring the other options. Companies exploit us
for profit, and make a killing at it. I watch my fellow blind people
growing up used to being gouged for basic rights people without
disabilities take for granted. Thank god for linux, and joanie, rob,
luke, everyone who make linux usable by the blind Thanks Kendell
clark



On 09/23/2015 04:41 AM, kendell clark wrote:
hi
I hate to burst your bubble, but afaik ubuntu is doing zero to make
their phone platform accessible. Android or IOS are really your
only options. Sad, but true as far as I know. This platform could
be accessible, but it takes the developers putting time and effort
into it, and as we all know, that's hard to get someone who doesn't
depend on accessibility tech to understand. What? Blind people? Huh?
I don't understand. I'm not an IOS person, mostly because I refuse
to buy into the apple culture, and also because I can't afford the
vast majority of apple hardware. I've seen what apple fans are like
and I don't really want to be caught up in that. Android fans can
be just as fanatical I suppose, but I've never had an android phone for more than a few days.
Thanks
Kendell clark



On 09/23/2015 04:27 AM, Dennis Westphal wrote:
iOS is in my opinion the most accessible plattform for mobile
devices. However Id love to use orca and Linux in general on a
mobile Phone or Tablet as well. I myself dont really like Android.
However I could really get behind using Ubuntu Phone and that way
using Linux exclusively

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 23.09.2015 um 11:22 schrieb Vincenzo Rubano <vincenzo rubano studio unibo it>:

  From what I know, we’re really far from getting Orca running
with them. If I remember correctly, the problem should be that
the a11y infrastructure is not ready at all for handling touch
screen events…

If you want to get an accessible touch screen device I would
recommend going with an iDevice. Sure, there’s some accessibility
support in Android devices as well, but I don’t think that it is
as good as the support that iOS provides… And this is my personal
opinion after having played a bit with both platforms and I do
not intend to open up a flame…


Vincenzo.


Il giorno 23 set 2015, alle ore 09:31, Milton <milton duurzaamdigitaal org> ha scritto:

Me too would like to have such phone.
Milton

Op 23-09-15 om 09:15 schreef Dennis Westphal:

Hi guys,

I just was wondering if there is any intension to integrate orca in Ubuntu phone. Or if it is even possible.
If it would be possible I'd like to get my hands on one of them.

Thanks
_______________________________________________
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Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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