Re: [orca-list] Government payed assistive technologies (was GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization)

[kendell clark <coffeekingms gmail com>]

hi
Zahari has a point. Ms does in fact, or used to at any rate, make
different pieces of software, works for example, that cannot use their
own format, instead using another format entirely. I don't find
libreoffice accessibility to be behind microsoft office, but I'm a
little bias, as I've not used ms office since ... oh, version 2003 I
think might have been the latest I used. On windows, libre office
accessibility is hit and miss, but on linux it usually works out of the
box, although I wish orca didn't default to reading an entire
spreadsheet row, causing orca to echo the entire line when you up and
down arrow. That's a nit though, and it's easily fixed. Reading entire
rows is usually incredibly useful, it's only in libreoffice calc that
it's not always useful, but the "soffice" binary is such that joanie
can't have different prefs for the different parts of libre office.
libre office is called soffice, whether you're running calc, writer,
impress, etc so there's no way for orca to tell
thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/03/2015 07:24 PM, Zahari Yurukov wrote:
> Hi,
> I ment entirely another thing: governments should pay for developing
> free software (new or existing), instead of buying a proprietary one.         
> They should not enforce one software over another. Currently, it's
> exactly the opposite.
> They should however enforce open standards - that's the only way for
> preventing monopolies (see below).
>
> Regarding Open/Libre Office, it's the accessibility which is behind that
> in MS Office. From a sighted perspective, there is not much difference,
> and is mostly a habit. It was the proprietary DOC format, which led to
> this market share (there always have been other word-processors and
> electronic tables), and I don't believe that it's adoption was a
> coincidence, if you understand what I mean. The next MS format, which
> was supposed to be open - DOCX", was discredeted by Microsoft, who with
> their dominant market share constantly violate it, making other
> word-processing applications unable to work with documents created in MS
> Word. MS Office also intentionaly doesn't work well with open formats.
>
> Fortunately, ODF is now an international standard, and MS "standards"
> are slowly droped in favor of open formats, at least in the world
> outside USA.
>
> Sadly, in USA people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are presented as
> heroes, though they're among the biggest villians the IT industry have
> ever seen for it's short history. Such people are shame for humanity -
> they sold every single humanbeing  on this planet for money and power.
> And now Bill Gates is trying to represent himself as the good guy, a
> philantropyst. What a joke.
> Of course, if it wasn't for them, it probably would be someone else -
> it's our job, the customers,  to throw them out of business.
>
> Look Windows 10 - the biggest spyware ever created. Now hear this guy, 2
> years ago:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=076Jplu1Abk&feature=youtu.be&t=5m44s
> After Windows 10, the question Windows VS Linux is over for me for good.
>
> And let's talk a litle bit about what is government, cause we've
> mentioning it so often it this thread. It's an administrative entity,
> elected by the people in order to serv those same people. It should
> mediate between the different interests of the members of the society,
> and should not take sides - it should be bound by the law.
> In many countries, the government has it's own life and own interests,
> which could not be called a democracy for sure. So it should be
> reminded of it's purpose.
>
> Know what, more sighted people should be interested where their money
> go, when they give them for the blind or anything. Sadly, people pey for
> the privilege to not care. That's why they often are exploited.
>
> Sorry, but everything is politics in this world, from the early days the
> societies were formed, and it's really complicated.
>
> Best wishes,
> Zahari
>
> На  3.09.2015 в 23:59, Vincenzo Rubano написа:
> > Hi Krishnakant,,
> >
> > in theory you’re right, but constraining a government to opensource IMO goes against the principle of 
> > granting digital freedom to the citizens. At least I would feel so if I were constrained to use 
> > libreoffice, just to give an example. I’d feel my freedom reduced because I would be constrained to use 
> > something buggy and that is not completely accessible when something better in terms of accessibility 
> > exists...
> >
> > Also, I think that this discussion cannot be reduced just to the opensource vs proprietary software. From 
> > my POV there are many things to consider, support for the used application, its usage scenario just to 
> > mention two of them.
> >
> > All this said, I am happy to use both proprietary and open source software, choosing whatever is more 
> > suitable for my needs.
> >
> > Vincenzo.
> >
> > > Il giorno 03 set 2015, alle ore 21:15, kk <krmane gmail com> ha scritto:
> > >
> > > It is the national security and digital freedom of her citisons which matter and must matter for 
> > > government on priority.
> > > And not even mentioning the amount of money that goes out from the country.
> > > I am reminded of the old british rule in India.
> > > Lot's of facilities but no freedom.
> > > happy hacking.
> > > Krishnakant,
> > >
> > >
> > > On Friday 04 September 2015 12:20 AM, Vincenzo Rubano wrote:
> > > > This has been a strong debate recently at our university, among computer science students.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > > But government *must* never spend money on monopolistic and closed software which takes away our 
> > > > > digital freedom.
> > > >
> > > > Well, honestly in my opinion there are no absolute rules to follow. The right decision should be made on 
> > > > a case by case. For instance, if a government should choose between using nvda and using jaws as a 
> > > > windows screen reader, then obviously the choice is NVDA: it's free and open source and it has *almost 
> > > > any* feature that jaws has.
> > > > If the choice should be between libreoffice and MS Office, though, the situation is completely 
> > > > different. Ms Office is more stable, less buggy and even more accessible than Libreoffice.
> > > >
> > > > IMO, the government should pick up whatever can make people most productive… And that’s not always open 
> > > > source software.
> > > >
> > > > Vincenzo.
> > > > > Il giorno 03 set 2015, alle ore 20:31, kk <krmane gmail com> ha scritto:
> > > > >
> > > > > Any individual has the choice to use what they want.
> > > > > But government *must* never spend money on monopolistic and closed software which takes away our 
> > > > > digital freedom.
> > > > > exclusive use of free software must be used to protect our freedom.
> > > > > I too distrust the big proprietary houses, and there are strong reasons to do so.
> > > > > Happy hacking.
> > > > > Krishnakant.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thursday 03 September 2015 11:01 PM, Victor Lawrence wrote:
> > > > > > I tend to agree.  If the states and government agencies are so
> > > > > > financially strapped, they should save money by providing their
> > > > > > clients with Linux and Orca instead of the expensive screen readers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not totally against government assistance when it actually does
> > > > > > people some good.  But I believe in responsible government spending
> > > > > > and the free market.  I do not like government monopolies or business
> > > > > > monopolies.  I'm one of those conservatives who distrusts big
> > > > > > government and big business.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Recently I read a post from a blogger who claims that Google, Freedom
> > > > > > Scientific and other big companies are in bed with the American
> > > > > > Council Of The Blind and the National Federation Of The Blind.  In
> > > > > > short, the blogger claimed that these companies bribe these advocacy
> > > > > > groups to promote their products.  These companies show up at the
> > > > > > national conventions and pour lots of money into these organizations
> > > > > > to buy their loyalty when most blind people would really rather use
> > > > > > Apple products or something else.  According to the blogger, at least
> > > > > > Apple doesn't even bother to bribe the ACB or the NFB.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > VictorOn 9/3/15, Zahari Yurukov <zahari yurukov gmail com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > In my opinion, it's extremely distructive for the blind when a
> > > > > > > government pays for proprietary software, and not less bad when a
> > > > > > > government pays for extremely overpriced hardware.
> > > > > > > Exactly this is what supports monopolies and keeps the prices high.
> > > > > > > JAWS is absurdly overpriced - how many people have bought it for
> > > > > > > themselfs, with their own money? It has no chance on the free market.
> > > > > > > Of course FreedomScientific are happy with over 900% profit.
> > > > > > > The governments, spending the taxpayer's money, should support the free
> > > > > > > software, instead of making a few companies rediculously rich - the
> > > > > > > same applies for Microsoft, too.
> > > > > > > And the profits in the accessibility hardware are not much different in
> > > > > > > percentage, except the prices are 5 times higher. No, I don't want a
> > > > > > > $5000 or $10000 braille display, thank you very much.
> > > > > > > They have returned their investments a million time, and the normal
> > > > > > > logic would be to lower the price and saturate the market, but no - why,
> > > > > > > if the governments provide them with a constant flow of money.
> > > > > > > That aplies to every business on the accessibility market - why they
> > > > > > > would start a price war, when they all lose at the end - they'll lose
> > > > > > > their high profit margin. Now, those who lose are the customers, but who
> > > > > > > cares for the customer? Yeah, they all care right, but this is nothing
> > > > > > > more than a marketing BS.
> > > > > > > And how exactly the customer loses? Firstly there are a very small
> > > > > > > percent of those who need this technology who actually get it. For
> > > > > > > screen readers that's not the case from 2006, thanks to Orca, NVDA and
> > > > > > > VoiceOver, but it applies for anything else. And it can't be otherwise
> > > > > > > with this prices.
> > > > > > > Second, that prevents other companies for entering the market, which
> > > > > > > again helps to the monopolists to keep the high prices, but not only
> > > > > > > that - why would they improve their products, when there is no
> > > > > > > competition? Yeah, there are many braille display vendors, but they have
> > > > > > > their own teretories, where one or the other is a monopolist.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In my opinion, the people who work in the governments look us as an
> > > > > > > unpleasant  liability, so they throw money (which are not theirs) over
> > > > > > > such companies (and organizations), as far as the blind get off their
> > > > > > > heads. They don't really care how those money are spend, as long as they
> > > > > > > can tell the voters "This year, we gave X millions for the blind, yay!".
> > > > > > > And the organizations don't care either - you'll teach me how to use
> > > > > > > JAWS? No, better not. Actually, it's the organizations, who promote
> > > > > > > those products, cause guess who is one of their other donors. And if we
> > > > > > > could say that they recognize NVDA - it growed too much to be ignored by
> > > > > > > anyone, I'm sure they don't recommend it to the blind people. And if
> > > > > > > they recommend JAWS instead of NVDA, the chances they would recommend
> > > > > > > Linux at all are negative. No, JAWS is not superior to NVDA, not for 99%
> > > > > > > of the use cases, not in 2015, and for sure not regarding the price. For
> > > > > > > those few cases which NVDA doesn't cope well, it's cheaper to find a
> > > > > > > sighted help, instead of buying JAWS.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And if you have used Linux long enough, you would know that it is
> > > > > > > superior to Windows in many more arias, compaired to those arias which
> > > > > > > is the opposite. Unfortunately, accessibility is not one of those arias
> > > > > > > for the most people, but it would not improve itself - it needs people,
> > > > > > > who have a will and knolage to do it. And those people need money - they
> > > > > > > won't work for free and you can't blame them - it's their right. In
> > > > > > > contrast of proprietary software though, if you give money to a free
> > > > > > > software developer, those money don't disappear - they transffer into
> > > > > > > source code, which anyone could improve later. If you give money to
> > > > > > > company, which develops a proprietary software, they could always close
> > > > > > > doors (if they're not financialy satisfied, for example), and you end
> > > > > > > with nothing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, use free software, promote free software, and pay for free software
> > > > > > > - as much as you can. It's very sad we can't donate directly to the guys
> > > > > > > and gals which develop the accessibility infrastructure under Linux -
> > > > > > > that would motivate them enormously, and will also motivate others to
> > > > > > > join and we'll not be the guys who always complain any more.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are also many other ways you could help free software:
> > > > > > > http://itsfoss.com/help-linux-grow/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And if you live in USA, please stand up against this:
> > > > > > > http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/09/02/1513259/new-fcc-rules-could-ban-wifi-router-firmware-modification
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > > > Zahari
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > На  3.09.2015 в 18:28, John Heim написа:
> > > > > > > > Kyle,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You should apologize for using the term "blind government entitlement
> > > > > > > > babies". That's offensive.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 09/02/2015 10:08 AM, Kyle wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Sorry for the upcoming rant, but some of this nonsense I'm seeing drove
> > > > > > > > > me to it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I can still build an 8-core x86_64 computer for less money than it
> > > > > > > > > currently costs to purchase even the least expensive open source
> > > > > > > > > braille displays, which are still costly prototypes. Once braille
> > > > > > > > > becomes as affordable as say for instance a computer monitor, then
> > > > > > > > > maybe more people will have the means to code for them, and braille
> > > > > > > > > won't be just for lucky blind government entitlement babies anymore.
> > > > > > > > > Until then, braille is always going to be too expensive to get enough
> > > > > > > > > people working on to improve it. Sorry, that's just the way it is. And
> > > > > > > > > no, I didn't use braille back in the days when I had access to Windows
> > > > > > > > > either, because I'm not a blind government baby who expected all the
> > > > > > > > > expensive stuff to be handed to me like I'm entitled to it or
> > > > > > > > > something, which is also why I use Linux now and help where I can to
> > > > > > > > > raise awareness and to contribute where I can to its development and
> > > > > > > > > wider usage by *all* people, not just entitlement blinks. No, Linux
> > > > > > > > > isn't "catching up" as you Microsoft and Apple lovers so eloquently put
> > > > > > > > > it. It's here, and it's far ahead of anything else you could be using.
> > > > > > > > > So get used to it.
> > > > > > > > > Sent from my Cancerian beast
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > orca-list mailing list
> > orca-list gnome org
> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> _______________________________________________
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> GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org