Re: [orca-list] The use case(s) for "frozen" flat review?

From: kendell clark <coffeekingms gmail com>
To: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs igalia com>
Cc: Orca List <orca-list gnome org>
Subject: Re: [orca-list] The use case(s) for "frozen" flat review?
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 20:08:55 -0600

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hi
To answer your first question, the second. I most often use flat
review to check on iso burns, file transfers, etc  in both gnome and
mate, and what usually occurs is this. The dialog opens, and orca says
the progress bar state, followed either of, burning "nameOfIso" to
disk, or "moving  numberOfFiles to Location". THe number of files
don't change in flat review, even though the progress bar state
continues to be announced by orca. if I want to see  the updated
window state, I have to tab away from and back to the window, so that
flat review can present the updated text. I didn't know you could set
bookmarks when in flat review. SPeaking of bookmarks, I wanted to
bring up an issue, or maybe it's not an issue, but rather a question
that has been tugging at me for a while. Orca bookmarks are incredibly
useful. They seem to only work in html controls, EG gecko or webkit
content. WOuld it be at all possible to make bookmarks general
purpose? THat is, I could set bookmarks in text documents, and jump to
my place there? I could set a bookmark on a particular file or folder
icon in nautilus, caja, etc and jump to that icon later? I have no
idea how the underlying code would work but if this was possible it
would make an already awesome feature incredibly handy. Back to flat
review. NOw that I think about it, I'm not sure if I'm asking flat
review to be improved or revised to be no longer frozen, which might
cause all kinds of problems. The closest comparison I can make to it
would be nvda's screen review, where it puts you into a sort of 2
dimentional representation of the screen, but not even it updates
itself when new text changes, which means it might not be possible. I
can think of all sorts of little examples where flat review does not
change when text changes. In update managers, fedora, ubuntu, as well
as arch, if when you enter flat review the current text of the window
is ?updating linux 3.10" the text will stay that way and never update
until you tab away form and back to the window. It kind of sounds like
I'm asking for flat review to be changed to be kind of like a 2d
representation of an application, complete with the ability to change
to updated labels, text, controls etc which might or might not be
possible. In any case, I really hesitate to ask this, as it would
probably  mean refactoring a lot of code, if not rewriting flat review
altogether.

Thanks
Kendell clark


Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

Hey Kendell.

Thanks for your reply! From it, I have follow-up questions:

1. Are you just staring at the screen? In other words, you get into
flat review, you move to the widget of interest, and you take your
hands off the keyboard waiting for that widget to reach a certain
point? Or are you instead:

2. Using flat review to move around on the screen, but occasionally
you wish to look to see if the widget has changed state/value? Or 
something else?

Also: Is there always just a single widget of interest? If so,
could you set a temporary bookmark so that you could jump there on
occasion?

Also: Please describe a very concrete and real example (complete
with application and task being attempted) that you yourself have
actually done (or tried to do but failed as a result of there not
being "frozen" flat review -- or whatever the missing feature is).

That last statement might sound a tad snarky. If so, please know
that it's not meant that way at all. I really want to understand
the problem(s) in order to solve them.

Take care. --joanie


On 03/02/2015 08:30 PM, kendell clark wrote:

hi My suggestion would be to keep flat review largely as it is
now, IE picture of what is in the window at the moment it is
activated, with the following exceptions. Progress, spinners, and
item counts. I'd also like to see, but don't have any idea how to
do it without causing all sorts of guessing code to be
implemented in orca, to periodically pole the window for any
changed labels and/or controlls. This is going off the topic, but
I see a problem with, I"m not at all sure if this is at-spi or
orca, but sometimes when a window such as a dialog opens, orca
cannot focus on anything but the window or frame's outer object,
that is, teh frame itself, and cannot see the text in taht object
until orca is restarted. I'm not sure what to do with flat
review. Flat review is really, really useful, abnd I don't think
it should go away. Is it possible to make exceptions to the
"static" state flat review uses, for example what I listed above,
without having to resort to lots of potentially costly calls to
at-spi to query the app for accessible states, names change
events, and all sorts of things that are over my head, and might
not even be implemented properly in what ever app you're
reviewing? Thanks Kendell clark


Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

Hey all.

Periodically someone raises the issue that Orca fails to 
preserve the flat review context when the content of the stuff 
being reviewed changes. This is not something I can just wave
a magic wand and fix without knowing what the actual use cases
are. It would be helpful if you could share them with me. But
first, I'd ask you to consider the following:

* The purpose of flat review is to show you what is on screen
in the current window. Like a photo. In other words, what
sighted users see. If we freeze flat review, making some of you
very happy, and the stuff you are reviewing scrolls off the
screen (e.g. in a chat window after more content comes in), I'd
bet money that someone else comes along and calls your feature
a bug because Orca was lying to them about what was showing.

* One of the features of flat review is to make it possible to
 synthesize mouse clicks. If the flat review context is
frozen, but the screen contents change, when you click one of
the following can happen: You click on some totally different
object -- the one that has since moved into view at the
coordinates in question -- which might have undesirable
consequences if it's a widget or link you didn't know was
there. Alternatively, Orca could try to activate the accessible
object associated with the flat review context. But if that
accessible is associated with a widget that no longer exists,
there's a chance Orca will crash your app.

Keeping the above in mind, please explain to me what it is you 
wish to accomplish with a "frozen" flat review so that we can
try to find a way to address your needs without causing the
problems described above. Maybe flat review as it was
envisioned isn't what anyone wants at all. Or maybe what you
want is a very valid and cool feature that ain't flat review,
but something entirely different which would exist in addition
to flat review. I'd love to know which it is. <smiles>

Thanks! --joanie
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manual is at 
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html

The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions

Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


_______________________________________________ orca-list
mailing list orca-list gnome org 
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit 
http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The
manual is at 
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html

The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions

Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find
out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

Follow-Ups:
- Re: [orca-list] The use case(s) for "frozen" flat review?
  - From: Joanmarie Diggs

References:
- [orca-list] The use case(s) for "frozen" flat review?
  - From: Joanmarie Diggs
- Re: [orca-list] The use case(s) for "frozen" flat review?
  - From: kendell clark
- Re: [orca-list] The use case(s) for "frozen" flat review?
  - From: Joanmarie Diggs

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