Re: [orca-list] Research&effectively using theis mailing list:__was Re: ChromeVox and speech-dispatcher

[Steve Holmes <steve holmes88 gmail com>]

Another aspect of search I find to be even more effective than google is the distro-specific archives like 
wiki.archlinux.org and sources similar for other distros. I often get more specific and informative 
information doing it this way. These other environments have a search box like on google but this way, you 
can keep out the other less relevant noise and possible advertising junk.

I also agree about the expectation of immediate answers to questions is quite unreasonable as we are all 
volunteer participants here and perhaps read emails only once a day or so. No-one is gonna pressure me on 
this or any other list. The answers come if and when they do.

On Jun 4, 2014, at 6:43 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton <albert e sten_clanton verizon net> wrote:

> First, thanks for mentioning some tools I hadn't heard of.  
>
> Second, I've found your list messages quite valuable, this being another
> example.  I think it is in line with the point I sought to make earlier.  I
> did not accuse anybody in this particular thread of taking an RTFM tone, but
> my general comments did arise from my having seen it often enough that I
> thought it needed warning against.  I've noted elsewhere that documentation
> seems to have improved a good deal in recent times, and I always, always
> prefer to read or search before hitting up a list, if only because it's
> often quicker.  But bad documentation has often been a stumbling block on my
> Linux path, and one especially useless Google search today reminded me how
> hard it still can be to get what seems a simple piece of information.  I
> wrote then and write now with this experience in mind.
>
> Take care.
>
> Al
> -----Original Message-----
> From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of B. Henry
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 4:06 PM
> To: Todor Fassl; orca-list gnome org
> Subject: Re: [orca-list] Research&effectively using theis mailing list:__was
> Re: ChromeVox and speech-dispatcher
>
> I totally agree, and no one here that I read has taken an rtfm tone either.
> The one thing that needs adding however is that not all search results are
> as good as others, nor is google or any general search engine the only
> option, and not all searches are as productive as they could be. 
> I need to learn more about google syntax myself, but that being said
> sometimes I do things correctly and still get really bad results, i.e. I try
> to eliminate a category of results and it's still included, but yes, I was
> online briefly before google. I missed it's birth, but when I got back
> online it was as much of a game changer as was broadband compared with
> dialup.
> Start googling and quickly you will learn which sites have the type of
> posts, articles, and information you like in a style that you find useful. 
> While not all articles are great, I for example like cybercity biz for basic
> Linux questions, including some distro specific ones and also some intros to
> more advanced topics.
> Also, I recommend that those new to Linux get familiar with package manager
> search tools, i.e. apt-cache search, apt-cache policy and apt-cache show for
> debian based distros, and packman and packer searches for arch. 
> I haven't ever used red Hat distros, but I just browsed a how to for their
> package management and they also have  powerful search functionality.
> Combine this kind of tool with Google and friends/enimies anddon't forget
> surfraw and  a newbie can start feeling much smarter with a moddest
> investment of time and energy and be able to use lists like this much more
> efficiently and effectively at the same time.
> I really will shut up about this now, but it is important to show people
> what they have to work with.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 04, 2014 at 02:26:03PM -0500, Todor Fassl wrote:
> > It's almost impossible to over-sell the value of a google search.  I 
> > am not kidding. Maybe you weren't around before google but to those of 
> > us who were, it's like a miracle. I'm not even talking about blind 
> > people. Any nerd worth his pay knows that google is like a miracle. 
> > Just about the best thing you can do for a newbie is to teach him the
> value of google.
> > Back in the old days, i used to tell newbies that I had a secret 
> > weapon that made me as good as I was at my job. You know what it was? 
> > Read the f'in manual. Read the installation instructions before you 
> > start. It makes a huge difference. You're going to get stuck and 
> > you're not going to be able to find the answer by thumbing through the 
> > manual. If you at least skimmed the installation instructions before 
> > you start, you'd save yourself a lot of headaches.
> >
> > Google is like that. My opinion is that you're not doing anybody any 
> > favors by under-selling google.  I have gotten into a lot of arguments 
> > with other nerds  bout this over the years.  I've been accused of 
> > being one of those bad nerds who gets their kicks by making newbies 
> > feel small. But that is not it. I think one of the best thing you can 
> > do for a newbie is to emphasize the value of google.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 06/04/14 12:36, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:
> > > Both of the messages just below mine make a number of good points.  
> > > The one caution I wish to note here is not to oversell the usefulness 
> > > of a google search.  Sometimes,  they're great and bring quick, good
> results.
> > > Sometimes, they lead to nothing useful.  Therefore, although I use 
> > > google almost every day and agree that it's often a good place to 
> > > start looking for answers, I am slow to get on somebody's case unless 
> > > I think there's very good evidence that the person in question simply 
> > > doesn't want to bother doing his or own work.  (In practice, so far, 
> > > that has meant that I've never gotten on anybody's case that way.) 
> > > With that caveat, however, I welcome and appreciate the comments below.
> > >
> > > Al
> > >
> > > On 06/04/2014 01:09 PM, B. Henry wrote:
> > > > All good points. I'd like to add a couple more, and also say this 
> > > > not just for Isac, and some of what we are writing doesn't even 
> > > > directly apply to him.
> > > > Firstly, Isac's subject does explain what he wants to know and what 
> > > > is in the msg body. Often though people use subject lines that give 
> > > > no useful information as to what the message is about, and/or are so 
> > > > general that they are not worth the energy used to type them. One 
> > > > would hope that questions to this list are about orca in some way or 
> > > > another for the most part. Some times something may be not directly 
> > > > related to Orca, but be of interest to a large percentage of Orca 
> > > > users and or developers. If the latter is the case, think twice, 
> > > > wait a while and think again before posting, and if you still think 
> > > > it is something that most folks on the list will want to read and 
> > > > you don't make a habbit of posting such OT messages then go for it. 
> > > > Either use OT as a prefix to the subject, or try and make your 
> > > > subject specific enough so that ppl will understand that thie msg is 
> > > > not about Orca. (I'm not a list moderator, and have not even been on 
> > > > this list for very long, so please take this is a personal 
> > > > oppinion/request, but not as official
> > > > policy)
> > > > Next thing is if you are new to the list take some time to browse 
> > > > the list archives. Often a question has been asked before, sometimes 
> > > > recently, and sometimes repeatedly every few weeks or months. This 
> > > > question for example while not directly asked perhaps was discussed 
> > > > at length with in the last few weeks. Of course no one has time to 
> > > > read every message ever posted to the list, but at least look at the 
> > > > last month or two of messages when you join.
> > > > It is not only a bit pushy in tone, but probably almost always 
> > > > completely useless to request speedy replies as most of us who try 
> > > > to assist others by answring listmai questions will do so as soon as 
> > > > we can for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that 
> > > > enjoy helping others. I remember the invaluable help I received from 
> > > > the Vinux googlegroup/mailinglist when I first started using Linux a 
> > > > few years ago and feel strongly about paying back and doing as much 
> > > > as I can to encourage more blind people to use Linux as my computing 
> > > > life has become much more rich&comfortable since I went Linux.
> > > > One of the things that makes Linux such a viable, and often easy 
> > > > option for computer users is the wealth of material available 
> > > > online. Of course it's not all good, and varies greatly in style and 
> > > > content, but it's exceedingly rare that I can't find answers to my 
> > > > Linux questions searching online. Ubuntu has been #1 or close to it 
> > > > in popularity for years, so getting help with Ubuntu is especially 
> > > > easy and you can pick from information that ranges from almost idiot 
> > > > proof step by step how-tos to the highly technical analysis of 
> > > > issues. The archwiki is a very good source of info that is often 
> > > > helpful for those using other distros as well. Gentoo's wiki was 
> > > > apparently mostly destroyed a few years ago, but they salvaged or 
> > > > rewrote a good bit since then, and again there's stuff there that is 
> > > > often reffed by other distros' users. The vinux wiki is a work in 
> > > > progress, but has a good bit of information that is highly 
> > > > recommended for those new to the world of accessible Linux, and if 
> > > > you are a bit farther along and would like to contribute, we will 
> > > > appreciate it. The Vinux-support google group has been around for 
> > > > several years now, and is an active spot for the discussion of not 
> > > > only Vinux, but many thigs related to accessible Linux and Linux in 
> > > > general.
> > > > Check out those archives.
> > > > Those coming from windows and other opperating systems often do not 
> > > > know about man pages. Just type man  <programname> or man <command> 
> > > > to get an overview of what the program is about or what the command 
> > > > does and how to use correct syntax with it, e.g.
> > > > man ls
> > > > will give you explanations of what the ls command does and a list of 
> > > > all of it's options, and there are a lot.
> > > > Many people who've been using LInux for a while don't seem to know 
> > > > about info pages. Info pages are somewhat like man pages, and in the 
> > > > most limited cases are nothing but manpages accessed with another 
> > > > command. IN the best cases info pages are nicely organized linked 
> > > > explanations of a program and how to use it.
> > > > Not all man pages are created equal, and especiallly for a new linux 
> > > > user or someone who is not particularly technically experienced they 
> > > > can be hard to follow. Sometimes authors are not native English 
> > > > speakers, or seem to hardly be aquainted with communication with 
> > > > words, but others are well  written and include easy to follow 
> > > > examples of how to use the program or command they are talking 
> > > > about. Check at the bottom of a man page, even if you don't 
> > > > understand it, for a list of other sources of documentation. Some 
> > > > programs have extensive docs available typically in the 
> > > > /usr/share/doc/ directory.
> > > > Sometimes these are available from with in a program itself, but 
> > > > othertimes you have to go there and read it.
> > > > Typing a program's name and then either help --help -h  or something 
> > > > similar can often give you all that you are looking for.
> > > > Again, we are not only writing this to keep list clutter to a minimum
> > > > and not waste list members'     time or bore them,
> > > > but because often it is so easy and fast to get an answer with a 
> > > > quick search, i.e. you can have the answer before you would have 
> > > > mailled a well formulated question to the list.
> > > > BTW, few care about perfect spelling and grammar here, but make an 
> > > > effort to insure your question is as clear as possible.
> > > > Include any information regarding program versions, hardware and 
> > > > what was going on when a problem or situation of interest occured in 
> > > > the first mail instead of having folks needing to ask for basic 
> > > > stuff and waiting for a reply before they can even start to help. 
> > > > We've all written in a hurry and hit the send button too soon, but 
> > > > try and remember to reread your question before mailing it to see if 
> > > > it is reasonably well composed.
> > > > Well, sorry both for going on so long and for leaving out important 
> > > > ideas and tips, but hopefully this will give some people some clues 
> > > > as to how and learn more about their computer, Linux, and of course 
> > > > Orca. Remember that while Orca users may be the best people to ask 
> > > > something that's not orca specific, this is the Orca list, and not a 
> > > > place for asking any and all accessibility questions, Linux 
> > > > questions etc.
> > > > Oh, one great tool that many may not know about is surfraw it's in 
> > > > many distros repos and saves valuable seconds and minutes searching. 
> > > > (google it to learn more...lol.)
> > > > --
> > > > B.H.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jun 04, 2014 at 10:57:57AM -0500, Todor Fassl wrote:
> > > > > You guys are all so tactful. But it might be worthwhile to say 
> > > > > things a little more clearly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Isaac, it is considered a little impolite to ask questions on a 
> > > > > list that you could  answer yourself by googling.  Also, you 
> > > > > shouldn't ask more than one or two questions a day. Finally, you 
> > > > > shouldn't say you want your answer as soon as possible unless it 
> > > > > really is some kind of emergency.  This is true especially if you 
> > > > > are going to ask several questions at a time.
> > > > > All of
> > > > > these things are considered to be a little impolite on email lists.
> > > > >
> > > > > The list is here for you to get help but you should be careful to 
> > > > > use the resource wisely.  In fact, you'd be doing  yourself a favor 
> > > > > by always checking google before asking for help on an email list. 
> > > > > You will find more complete answers and find them faster by using 
> > > > > google. And it's an important skill to develop if you are going to 
> > > > > work with computers as part of your job.  I used to have a boss who 
> > > > > made it a point to check a person's googling skills before hiring 
> > > > > them. It's a valuable skill to have.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 06/04/14 07:21, Justin Pospical wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Isaac,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Might I suggest that before installing Ubuntu or some other 
> > > > > > distribution, you do a bit more research on it? Google is 
> > > > > > invaluable for this kind of thing, and you can probably find 
> > > > > > answers to most of your questions there. Also, it may be 
> > > > > > benificial for you to try out Linux in a VM (that is, a virtual 
> > > > > > machine), on Windows before actually installing it, or do install 
> > > > > > alongside Windows in a dual-boot setup, if that is not what you're 
> > > > > > already planning to do. I won't go into virtual machines here, but 
> > > > > > two good clients you can try are VirtualBox and VMWare Player, 
> > > > > > both free. As for you're original question, under the Orca 
> > > > > > preferences dialog there is a keybindings tab, which you can 
> > > > > > navigate to by using the left and right arrows on the tab list, 
> > > > > > which should be the first thing you see when opening the dialog. 
> > > > > > there will be a list of functions separated into categories, 
> > > > > > bound, unbound and modified, which you can up and down arrow through.
> when you find a key you'd like to change press enter on it until you here
> "enter new key"
> > > > > > and type the key you'd like to assign to that function, then press 
> > > > > > enter again. When all is said and done press the ok button. 
> > > > > > Remember that Orca does not operate the same way that JAWS, or any 
> > > > > > Windows screen reader for that matter, does, so you're not going 
> > > > > > to get the exact same behavior. You should probably read up a bit 
> > > > > > on the orca documentation, and that of gnome and other graphical 
> > > > > > programs you intend to use. Vinux has a wiki with a lot of good 
> > > > > > information, might want to give it a look.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6/3/14, Isaac Sebastian <isaacs1214 gmail com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Hello, All,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was wondering how to make the keybinding on orca exactly like 
> > > > > > > the jaws for windows screen reader.  Please let me know as soon 
> > > > > > > as possible.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Isaac Sebastian
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > > > > The manual is at
> > > > > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.h
> > > > > > > tml The FAQ is at 
> > > > > > > http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find 
> > > > > > > out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > > > The manual is at
> > > > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.ht
> > > > > > ml The FAQ is at 
> > > > > > http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find 
> > > > > > out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > > The manual is at
> > > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.htm
> > > > > l The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
> > > > > how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > > > The manual is at
> > > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> > > > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
> > > > how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> _______________________________________________
> orca-list mailing list
> orca-list gnome org
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> The manual is at
> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to
> help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
>
> _______________________________________________
> orca-list mailing list
> orca-list gnome org
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp