GNOME.org
 

Re: [orca-list] Research&effectively using theis mailing list:__was Re: ChromeVox and speech-dispatcher

I totally agree, and no one here that I read has taken an rtfm tone either.
The one thing that needs adding however is that not all search results are as good as others, nor is google 
or any general 
search engine the only option, and not all searches are as productive as they could be. 
I need to learn more about google syntax myself, but that being said sometimes I do things correctly and 
still get really 
bad results, i.e. I try to eliminate a category of results and it's still included, but yes, I was online 
briefly before 
google. I missed it's birth, but when I got back online it was as much of a game changer as was broadband 
compared with 
dialup.
Start googling and quickly you will learn which sites have the type of posts, articles, and information you 
like in a 
style that you find useful. 
While not all articles are great, I for example like cybercity biz for basic Linux questions, including some 
distro 
specific ones and also some intros to more advanced topics.
Also, I recommend that those new to Linux get familiar with package manager search tools, i.e. apt-cache 
search, apt-cache 
policy and apt-cache show for debian based distros, and packman and packer searches for arch. 
I haven't ever used red Hat distros, but I just browsed a how to for their package management and they also 
have  powerful 
search functionality. Combine this kind of tool with Google and friends/enimies anddon't forget surfraw and  
a newbie can 
start feeling much smarter with a moddest investment of time and energy and be able to use lists like this 
much more 
efficiently and effectively at the same time.
I really will shut up about this now, but it is important to show people what they have to work with.
 

On Wed, Jun 04, 2014 at 02:26:03PM -0500, Todor Fassl wrote:


It's almost impossible to over-sell the value of a google search.  I am not
kidding. Maybe you weren't around before google but to those of us who were,
it's like a miracle. I'm not even talking about blind people. Any nerd worth
his pay knows that google is like a miracle. Just about the best thing you
can do for a newbie is to teach him the value of google.

Back in the old days, i used to tell newbies that I had a secret weapon that
made me as good as I was at my job. You know what it was? Read the f'in
manual. Read the installation instructions before you start. It makes a huge
difference. You're going to get stuck and you're not going to be able to
find the answer by thumbing through the manual. If you at least skimmed the
installation instructions before you start, you'd save yourself a lot of
headaches.

Google is like that. My opinion is that you're not doing anybody any favors
by under-selling google.  I have gotten into a lot of arguments with other
nerds  bout this over the years.  I've been accused of being one of those
bad nerds who gets their kicks by making newbies feel small. But that is not
it. I think one of the best thing you can do for a newbie is to emphasize
the value of google.






On 06/04/14 12:36, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:

Both of the messages just below mine make a number of good points.  The
one caution I wish to note here is not to oversell the usefulness of a
google search.  Sometimes,  they're great and bring quick, good results.
Sometimes, they lead to nothing useful.  Therefore, although I use google
almost every day and agree that it's often a good place to start looking
for answers, I am slow to get on somebody's case unless I think there's
very good evidence that the person in question simply doesn't want to
bother doing his or own work.  (In practice, so far, that has meant that
I've never gotten on anybody's case that way.) With that caveat, however,
I welcome and appreciate the comments below.

Al

On 06/04/2014 01:09 PM, B. Henry wrote:

All good points. I'd like to add a couple more, and also say this not
just for Isac, and some of what we are writing
doesn't even directly apply to him.
Firstly, Isac's subject does explain what he wants to know and what is
in the msg body. Often though people use subject
lines that give no useful information as to what the message is about,
and/or are so general that they are not worth the
energy used to type them. One would hope that questions to this list are
about orca in some way or another for the most
part. Some times something may be not directly related to Orca, but be
of interest to a large percentage of Orca users and
or developers. If the latter is the case, think twice, wait a while and
think again before posting, and if you still think
it is something that most folks on the list will want to read and you
don't make a habbit of posting such OT messages then
go for it. Either use OT as a prefix to the subject, or try and make
your subject specific enough so that ppl will
understand that thie msg is not about Orca. (I'm not a list moderator,
and have not even been on this list for very long,
so please take this is a personal oppinion/request, but not as official
policy)
Next thing is if you are new to the list take some time to browse the
list archives. Often a question has been asked
before, sometimes recently, and sometimes repeatedly every few weeks or
months. This question for example while not
directly asked perhaps was discussed at length with in the last few
weeks. Of course no one has time to read every message
ever posted to the list, but at least look at the last month or two of
messages when you join.
It is not only a bit pushy in tone, but probably almost always
completely useless to request speedy replies as most of us
who try to assist others by answring listmai questions will do so as
soon as we can for a number of reasons, not the least
of which being that enjoy helping others. I remember the invaluable help
I received from the Vinux googlegroup/mailinglist
when I first started using Linux a few years ago and feel strongly about
paying back and doing as much as I can to
encourage more blind people to use Linux as my computing life has become
much more rich&comfortable since I went Linux.
One of the things that makes Linux such a viable, and often easy option
for computer users is the wealth of material
available online. Of course it's not all good, and varies greatly in
style and content, but it's exceedingly rare that I
can't find answers to my Linux questions searching online. Ubuntu has
been #1 or close to it in popularity for years, so
getting help with Ubuntu is especially easy and you can pick from
information that ranges from almost idiot proof step by
step how-tos to the highly technical analysis of issues. The archwiki is
a very good source of info that is often helpful
for those using other distros as well. Gentoo's wiki was apparently
mostly destroyed a few years ago, but they salvaged or
rewrote a good bit since then, and again there's stuff there that is
often reffed by other distros' users. The vinux wiki
is a work in progress, but has a good bit of information that is highly
recommended for those new to the world of
accessible Linux, and if you are a bit farther along and would like to
contribute, we will appreciate it. The
Vinux-support google group has been around for several years now, and is
an active spot for the discussion of not only
Vinux, but many thigs related to accessible Linux and Linux in general.
Check out those archives.
Those coming from windows and other opperating systems often do not know
about man pages. Just type man  <programname> or
man <command> to get an overview of what the program is about or what
the command does and how to use correct syntax with
it, e.g.
man ls
will give you explanations of what the ls command does and a list of all
of it's options, and there are a lot.
Many people who've been using LInux for a while don't seem to know about
info pages. Info pages are somewhat like man
pages, and in the most limited cases are nothing but manpages accessed
with another command. IN the best cases info pages
are nicely organized linked explanations of a program and how to use it.
Not all man pages are created equal, and especiallly for a new linux
user or someone who is not particularly technically
experienced they can be hard to follow. Sometimes authors are not native
English speakers, or seem to hardly be aquainted
with communication with words, but others are well  written and include
easy to follow examples of how to use the program
or command they are talking about. Check at the bottom of a man page,
even if you don't understand it, for a list of other
sources of documentation. Some programs have extensive docs available
typically in the /usr/share/doc/ directory.
Sometimes these are available from with in a program itself, but
othertimes you have to go there and read it.
Typing a program's name and then either help --help -h  or something
similar can often give you all that you are looking
for.
Again, we are not only writing this to keep list clutter to a minimum
and not waste list members'     time or bore them,
but because often it is so easy and fast to get an answer with a quick
search, i.e. you can have the answer before you
would have mailled a well formulated question to the list.
BTW, few care about perfect spelling and grammar here, but make an
effort to insure your question is as clear as possible.
Include any information regarding program versions, hardware and what
was going on when a problem or situation of interest
occured in the first mail instead of having folks needing to ask for
basic stuff and waiting for a reply before they can
even start to help. We've all written in a hurry and hit the send button
too soon, but try and remember to reread your
question before mailing it to see if it is reasonably well composed.
Well, sorry both for going on so long and for leaving out important
ideas and tips, but hopefully this will give some
people some clues as to how and learn more about their computer, Linux,
and of course Orca. Remember that while Orca users
may be the best people to ask something that's not orca specific, this
is the Orca list, and not a place for asking any
and all accessibility questions, Linux questions etc.
Oh, one great tool that many may not know about is surfraw it's in many
distros repos and saves valuable seconds and
minutes searching. (google it to learn more...lol.)
-- 
B.H.





On Wed, Jun 04, 2014 at 10:57:57AM -0500, Todor Fassl wrote:

You guys are all so tactful. But it might be worthwhile to say things a
little more clearly.

Isaac, it is considered a little impolite to ask questions on a list
that
you could  answer yourself by googling.  Also, you shouldn't ask more
than
one or two questions a day. Finally, you shouldn't say you want your
answer
as soon as possible unless it really is some kind of emergency.  This
is
true especially if you are going to ask several questions at a time.
All of
these things are considered to be a little impolite on email lists.

The list is here for you to get help but you should be careful to use
the
resource wisely.  In fact, you'd be doing  yourself a favor by always
checking google before asking for help on an email list. You will find
more
complete answers and find them faster by using google. And it's an
important
skill to develop if you are going to work with computers as part of
your
job.  I used to have a boss who made it a point to check a person's
googling
skills before hiring them. It's a valuable skill to have.


On 06/04/14 07:21, Justin Pospical wrote:

Hi Isaac,

Might I suggest that before installing Ubuntu or some other
distribution, you do a bit more research on it? Google is invaluable
for this kind of thing, and you can probably find answers to most of
your questions there. Also, it may be benificial for you to try out
Linux in a VM (that is, a virtual machine), on Windows before actually
installing it, or do install alongside Windows in a dual-boot setup,
if that is not what you're already planning to do. I won't go into
virtual machines here, but two good clients you can try are VirtualBox
and VMWare Player, both free. As for you're original question, under
the Orca preferences dialog there is a keybindings tab, which you can
navigate to by using the left and right arrows on the tab list, which
should be the first thing you see when opening the dialog. there will
be a list of functions separated into categories, bound, unbound and
modified, which you can up and down arrow through. when you find a key
you'd like to change press enter on it until you here "enter new key"
and type the key you'd like to assign to that function, then press
enter again. When all is said and done press the ok button. Remember
that Orca does not operate the same way that JAWS, or any Windows
screen reader for that matter, does, so you're not going to get the
exact same behavior. You should probably read up a bit on the orca
documentation, and that of gnome and other graphical programs you
intend to use. Vinux has a wiki with a lot of good information, might
want to give it a look.

On 6/3/14, Isaac Sebastian <isaacs1214 gmail com> wrote:

Hello, All,

I was wondering how to make the keybinding on orca exactly like
the jaws for windows screen reader.  Please let me know as soon
as possible.

Sincerely,



Isaac Sebastian
_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
[Date Prev][Date Next]   [Thread Prev][Thread Next]   [Thread Index] [Date Index] [Author Index]