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Re: gnome-shell-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 30

@Bob: Thanks for clearing that up, I've grown rather fond of GNOME-Look, and I'd hate to see all that community effort go to waste!
@Thomas: Short answer; yes :) A quick way to cycle through running applications would be pleasant. I would personally ask for more information about the sidebar, as there is very little data about it at present and I think it might just solve my own particular problem. 


On 19/12/09 00:00, gnome-shell-list-request gnome org wrote:

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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Bob Hazard)
    2. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Ryan Peters)
    3. RE: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Thomas Wood)
    4. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Bob Hazard)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:53:26 +0000
From: Bob Hazard<linuxoflondon googlemail com>
To: Thomas Wood<thos gnome org>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:
	<90e180400912181553n6f1aa9f8s78dd156666b7b741 mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

You are not supposed to use the Browse menu for launching imho, it is
for discovery.

If an app is not in my favourites I usually launch it by typing the
first three letters and pressing enter; the search box automatically
has focus when you bring up the overlay.

2009/12/18 Thomas Wood<thos gnome org>:

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 17:35 -0600, Ryan Peters wrote:


Hmm... how about the left side be an applications menu like before,
but the top/bottom could maybe contain Recent Documents/Places? In all
honesty I wouldn't mind the new application menu so much as long as I
didn't have those dreaded pages... the menu's a little larger than it
needs to be, too.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm mad or trolling at all, I apologize.

I think you've just highlighted the fact that the application menu
doesn't behave like an ordinary menu. Specifically, it doesn't open
sub-menus on hover. If it did, then opening an application would still
only require two clicks:

* activate the overview from the top left corner
* click the "more applications" item ?(click one)
* hover the category you need
* click the application ?(click two)

If you check the latest gnome-shell, you will notice that the categories
and pages of the applications menu are now in a single scrollable list,
although personally I think the menu and category based approach would
have worked better if the sub-menus had opened on hover.

Regards,

Thomas

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:57:33 -0600
From: Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>
To: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:<4B2C16ED 8020304 sbcglobal net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 12/18/2009 05:46 PM, Thomas Wood wrote:

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 17:35 -0600, Ryan Peters wrote:



Hmm... how about the left side be an applications menu like before,
but the top/bottom could maybe contain Recent Documents/Places? In all
honesty I wouldn't mind the new application menu so much as long as I
didn't have those dreaded pages... the menu's a little larger than it
needs to be, too.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm mad or trolling at all, I apologize.


I think you've just highlighted the fact that the application menu
doesn't behave like an ordinary menu. Specifically, it doesn't open
sub-menus on hover. If it did, then opening an application would still
only require two clicks:

* activate the overview from the top left corner
* click the "more applications" item  (click one)
* hover the category you need
* click the application  (click two)

If you check the latest gnome-shell, you will notice that the categories
and pages of the applications menu are now in a single scrollable list,
although personally I think the menu and category based approach would
have worked better if the sub-menus had opened on hover.

Regards,

Thomas




I have just installed the latest build (silly me, I forgot to check it
before my rant :P). Currently it's broken for me, but I'll try it again
another day.


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:58:19 +0000
From: Thomas Wood<thos gnome org>
To: Dant? Ashton<mentalomega googlemail com>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: RE: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:<1261180699 11993 11 camel localhost localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 23:50 +0000, Dant? Ashton wrote:

To be perfectly honest, I agree with the car analogy.
I suppose my main problem with it is that I do seem to be taking a step
back to take what I need.

Or, to use another anology. It's like keeping my drink outside the room
I'm in, in Gnome's history, I've always had my drink with me, but with
Shell, I'll have to leave it outside and come and get it when I want it.

A dock-bar like Cairo or AWN would be a way of replacing an app, but
what if I'd want just a normal taskbar?


So the complaint is basically that there is no taskbar or window list?
That you have to enter the overview to switch windows.

Could this be solved with a seperate drop down window list? Or do you
really just want an always on-screen window list (i.e. a "task bar" or
dock like area).

Regards,

Thomas





------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:59:38 +0000
From: Bob Hazard<linuxoflondon googlemail com>
To: Dant? Ashton<mentalomega googlemail com>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:
	<90e180400912181559s4bacde10rfc8a420d3661b1f4 mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

GTK themes are unaffected and Mutter which replaces Metacity to draw
the window decorations is 100% compatible with old Metacity themes.

The devs are talking about using CSS to theme the shell itself to make
it more accessible.

2009/12/18 Dant? Ashton<mentalomega googlemail com>:

To be perfectly honest, I agree with the car analogy.
I suppose my main problem with it is that I do seem to be taking a step back
to take what I need.

Or, to use another anology. It's like keeping my drink outside the room I'm
in, in Gnome's history, I've always had my drink with me, but with Shell,
I'll have to leave it outside and come and get it when I want it.

A dock-bar like Cairo or AWN would be a way of replacing an app, but what if
I'd want just a normal taskbar?

Another, minor point I'd like to raise; would such a massive rework of the
enviorment break compatabilty with the community's previous themes? (IE:
Could I go to GNOME Look or GNOME Art, and still expect a theme package to
work correctly?)


On 18/12/09 23:32, gnome-shell-list-request gnome org wrote:

Send gnome-shell-list mailing list submissions to
? ? ? ?gnome-shell-list gnome org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
? ? ? ?http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
? ? ? ?gnome-shell-list-request gnome org

You can reach the person managing the list at
? ? ? ?gnome-shell-list-owner gnome org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of gnome-shell-list digest..."


Today's Topics:

? ?1. RE: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Mark Curtis)
? ?2. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Bob Hazard)
? ?3. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth)
? ?4. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Ryan Peters)
? ?5. Re: All GNOME Shell Developers. (Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:47:30 -0500
From: Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>
To:<gnome-shell-list gnome org>
Subject: RE: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:<SNT106-W1545C2634511796A50327FBB850 phx gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"


I don't want to speak for Dante, but considering he says "one click" I'm
guessing he has shortcuts in either the top or bottom panel where no such
thing exists in GNOME Shell.

Even if you don't want to consider the overlay a click, it is still more
mouse movement. Up to the left to activate overlay, then back down to click
on shortcut.
Shortcuts on the GNOME Panel have the advantage of infinite height or
width as well, this advantage is lost in the overlay.

From: sri ramkrishna me
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:43:39 -0800
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
To: merkinman hotmail com
CC: gnome-shell-list gnome org



2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>







Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...

I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html



Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
?"...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what it
takes me one to do now?"

????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.




Precisely why I took him to task. ?Back on topic:

In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
Applications->section->App

so that is three clicks.



In gnome-shell method, we have:

* 1 click for common used apps
* 2 clicks for any other apps

I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click. ?But if you did,
it would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.



Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat
scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.

sri


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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:52:15 +0000
From: Bob Hazard<linuxoflondon googlemail com>
To: ????? ?????????<denis cheremisov net>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org, Dant? Ashton
? ? ? ?<mentalomega googlemail com>
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:
? ? ? ?<90e180400912181452l5ccb9fe8ha5e93976e552e569 mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

When I say a few weeks I mean the muscle memory of someone who has
done it the old way a thousand times a day for 15-20 years.

Any change takes getting used to in this situation whether or not it is
better.

2009/12/18 ????? ?????????<denis cheremisov net>:


Few weeks to get comfortable? Man, are you crazy?
It's too long and only proves the gnome-shell idea sucks.

2009/12/19 Bob Hazard<linuxoflondon googlemail com>


It's actually more useful to someone with only one workspace because
they tend to have even more overlapping windows.

It only needs one click to switch windows anyway. ?The top left corner
is a big target you can do a very approximate gesture to trigger the
zoom without clicking.

After a while it becomes second nature and I was surprised that it
feels very old fashioned to go back to a flat desktop.

Try Docky if you find the transition uncomfortable but it only takes a
few weeks.

2009/12/18 Dant? Ashton<mentalomega googlemail com>:


Hey all.

I've been watching GNOME Shell for a while, but there is one problem
that I
really can't see being resolved.

How useful is this to someone who uses one desktop? Just one?
Never-mind
the
other one, or three, or four...

Why should I, the user, have to perform three extra clicks just to do
what
it takes me one to do now?

There has been less video/photo material to consume then I could safely
make
a judgement on, and if the 'one desktop' problem has been addressed and
solved, I apologize for taking up your time.


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--
? ?????????, ????? ?????????.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:56:50 +0000
From: Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth<mazz0 mazz0 com>
To: Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:
? ? ? ?<394c17690912181456s19271b57wac25cd638d75604 mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Reducing the number of key clicks isn't a gain if it means you have a much
bigger list to look through. ?You can't measure usability purely in number
of clicks, or having the categorized menu would never have been an
improvement in the first place.

2009/12/18 Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>



2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>



?Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...


I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell



http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html

Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
?"...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what it
takes me one to do now?"

????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.




Precisely why I took him to task. ?Back on topic:

In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
Applications->section->App

so that is three clicks.

In gnome-shell method, we have:

* 1 click for common used apps
* 2 clicks for any other apps

I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click. ?But if you did,
it
would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.

Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat
scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.

sri


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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:22:39 -0600
From: Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>
To: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:<4B2C0EBF 4070105 sbcglobal net>
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:32:20 +0000
From: Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth<mazz0 mazz0 com>
To: Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>
Cc: gnome-shell-list gnome org
Subject: Re: All GNOME Shell Developers.
Message-ID:
? ? ? ?<394c17690912181532h28d5210dy3c069d1616083824 mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Good point, it /is/ only two clicks to launch an app from the menu, even
if
it's sub-categorized. ?I don't really think it can be denied that
launching
apps, just like switching between them, is *currently* slower and more
complicated in shell than it is with a panel/dock. ?The question is, how
can
that be improved?

2009/12/18 Ryan Peters<sloshy45 sbcglobal net>



?On 12/18/2009 04:56 PM, Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth wrote:

Reducing the number of key clicks isn't a gain if it means you have a
much
bigger list to look through. ?You can't measure usability purely in
number
of clicks, or having the categorized menu would never have been an
improvement in the first place.

2009/12/18 Sriram Ramkrishna<sri ramkrishna me>



?2009/12/18 Mark Curtis<merkinman hotmail com>



Well perhaps it would be best to tackle the individual issues...


I've linked to previous threads on my main issue with GNOME Shell



http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00052.html

?Dant? Ashton who started this particular discussion has an issue with:
?"...the user, [having] to perform three extra clicks just to do what
it
takes me one to do now?"

????? ????????? was less descriptive in their issue(s) though.




Precisely why I took him to task. ?Back on topic:

In the old method, it would take me 3 clicks to launch an application:
Applications->section->App

so that is three clicks.

In gnome-shell method, we have:

* 1 click for common used apps
* 2 clicks for any other apps

I don't consider going to the overview mode as a click. ?But if you did,
it would still be 2 or 3 clicks which is equivalent to the old method.

Initially there was categories for the apps, but was changed to a flat
scheme which reduced the number of key clicks.

sri


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?That doesn't mean that more clicks means it's more usable, though. In
Gnome-Shell, if I want to launch an application that isn't on my recently
opened applications list, I have a lot more clicks than before.

1. Open Activities (arguably this can be triggered without a click,
though)
2. Click "Browse" on the Applications section.
3. Click on the category I want.
4. Sift through a page or two (why the pages!?) to find the application
I'm
looking for.

This is not intuitive, takes forever (especially considering the
*speed*it opens the menus), and is at least twice as confusing as the method
present in the current Gnome stable release.

Also, I only have two clicks to open an application as I am now.

1. Open the applications menu.
2. Highlight the mouse over a menu and when it pops up (you don't need to
click it, just like in Windows), click the app you want to open.

There are lots of users that can make use of workspaces, but you
shouldn't
force them to use them.

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End of gnome-shell-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 28
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End of gnome-shell-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 30
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