Re: gnome key binding standard

[Kai Wetzel <k wetzel welfen-netz com>]

nuke@bayside.net wrote:
> we could really benefit from a way to pull down a menu, such like Meta+F
> could bring down the "File" menu. and yeah, i agree binding meta (not
> alt, not ctrl) would be a better idea. IMO, ctrl should be up to the
> application to use for its own functions.

We have to differentiate here between accelerator keys
such as "Ctrl-C" for Edit->Copy on '95 or "Ctrl-Y" for
Paste X11 selection in Emacs and keyboard mnemonics, such as
"Alt-F - N" which let the user access the menus/buttons
via the keyboard (often indicated by underlined letters in labels).

As an aside, accelerators are not translated to other
languages (by convention) while mnemonics naturally are.

We're facing the problem that some keyboards have
a "Meta" key _and_ an "Alt" key, while some have only
one, among them the by number most common type of keyboard.

Another consideration is that the "Meta" key is not as
easy to reach as "Alt" on some keyboards, but I don't
know where the "Meta" key is commonly located as I've
only used three kinds of keyboards so far.

Another important point is that some common accelerator
key bindings use two keys (e.g. "Meta" and "Ctrl")
while some use only one, (e.g. "Ctrl" in '95).

So now what should be the default, which means
prior to machine specific adjustments by the vendor
and prior to the administrator/user's modifications ?

Most commonly we have Ctrl available + at least one of
"Meta" and "Alt"

>From this consideration, it's not good to pick a default
accel binding which uses two modifier keys, as this
leaves no key for mnemonics.

I'm suggesting to use "Ctrl" in the default for
the accel keys, and to use a Mac/'95-like binding
as default, w/ some _minor_ improvement where the
Mac/'95 binding have never been consistent, or only been
been so for a short time.

Whether we call the mnemonic key "Meta" or call it
"Alt", I don't care much, just that I think "Alt"
is the more common key by number and that those people
common from #95 will not easily realize why the
"Linux desktop" calls the key labeled "Alt" "Meta".

IMO applications should only access these things
through a library interface, never by just reading the
X keys, e.g. in an entry line widget.

Tom Vogt wrote:
> Oskar Liljeblad <osk@hem.passagen.se> wrote:
[...]
> > I see little reason that the unix command key in X should be the Meta key
> > (contrary to the Mozilla UI guide). It feels kind of awkward to hit ALT+A on
> > a standard PC keyboard, and when you want to hit ALT+B you have to change
> > the position of your hand.
>
> I agree, but would like to point out that mozilla is by far NOT the only
> unix program that uses alt as the meta key.
> which might be a good thing after all - and avoid gnome-bindings to mess
> with the applications' bindings.

Additional to the notation of "accelerators" and "mnemonics"
as mentioned above, typical applications should not introduce
primary accelerator keys like "Ctrl-J" but only use secondary
accelerators such as "Ctrl-Shift-K".  Also, even secondary
new bindings are problematic, since they could conflict w/
alternative key-bindings, which IMO indicates _always_ going
through the gui-list is a good idea.
(And if they are introduced anyway, only through the
library layer which will handle conflicts)

nuke@bayside.net wrote:
[...]
> > Ctrl+A Edit/Select All
> > Ctrl+X Edit/Cut
> I hate that one. x is associated with "exit" to most people, and not at all
> with cut.

On '95 Ctrl-X means Edit->Cut.  Since "Cut" is a pretty often used
command, '95 users will _expect_ this to work in a '95-like
binding.  I understand very well why many people don't like
Ctrl-X for Cut, and they can easily use a binding which doesn't
use it or even modify a binding to suit their needs.

The question is what to make the _default_ for UNIX applications.
I beleive it is a good idea to stay in a Mac/'95 heritage here,
since we're dealing with the successor to those ancient GUIs after
all.  With time, more users will try out more advanced/effecient
keybindings (some others will be happy w/ the smooth transition
and stick to it, I don't think that's a problem).

[...]
> > Ctrl+Y (?) Edit/Redo
> I think u and r are used more often for undo/redo on unix, no? it's also
> much easier to remember.

Not in a '95 inspired binding.  IMO "Ctrl-'-'" is for
UNDO in a better key-binding, not "u" :O)

Now let's look at the proposed default binding,
heavily inspired by the Mac and later '95:
(Only that the Mac doesn't use "Ctrl, but the older
"Command" key.)

I've re-ordered them to check what keys are still
"not used".

I've added some keys which only apply to rather
specific apps, e.g. "Ctrl-b" for application dealing
w/ styled text.  * indicates they seem to be more
open for debate then others.

Oskar Liljeblad wrote:

>   Ctrl+A Edit/Select All
> * Ctrl+B make the selected text bold, not yet specified
           where it is in menus, domain specific
>   Ctrl+C Edit/Copy
>   Ctrl+D
>   Ctrl+E
>   Ctrl+F Find
  * Ctrl+Shift+F Find Again : an idea from the fOX discussion,
                 I really like it since it saves a primary accel.
  * Ctrl+Shift+F Edit/Replace...(another alternative)

Let's discuss Ctrl-G
  * Ctrl+G Edit/Go To... domain specific
  * Ctrl+G Find Again
I would suggest to include neither for _now_ but think of
other candidates ("reserverd for future use").

  * Ctrl+H Edit/Replace...

I don't like this one in particular, but IMO we should discuss
the whole find/search/Replace issue, possibly deferr a decision
for a later version of the styleguide resp. default key-binding.

  * Ctrl+I make the selected text italic, domain specific.

    Ctrl+J
    Ctrl+K
    Ctrl+L
    Ctrl+M

>   Ctrl+N File/New
>   Ctrl+O File/Open
>   Ctrl+P File/Print
> * Ctrl+Q File/Quit
    
    Ctrl+R

> Ctrl+S File/Save

    Ctrl+T

  * Ctrl+U underline selected text, domain specific

>   Ctrl+V Edit/Paste
    Ctrl+W close window resp. File/Close
>   Ctrl+X Edit/Cut

I don't think it's very good:
> * Ctrl+Y Edit/Redo

>   Ctrl+Z Edit/Undo
  * Ctrl+Shift+Z Edit/Redo saves Ctrl-Z and is faster w/ multi-level
                           undo/redo cycling

Hmpf, I keep hitting Ctrl+W in Netscape ...doesn't 
cut the selection as expected :O(

I propose to agree on as many keys as possible and
pass this on to other desktop related projects to make it
the _default_ keybinding for all GUIs until keys cease to exist
or a good reason is found to replace the binding :O)

It would be nice to reach an agreement on Ctrl-Meta-Alt, and
_configurability_ of these as well as the keybindings in general.
The latter needs further refinement, even though the general
goal should IMHO be clear on a UNIX desktop.

Best regards,
kai