Re: [gnome-cyr] Re: =?koi8-r?q?gtksourcevi?==?koi8-r?b?ZXcvcG8vcnUucG86IPzK3vTt7D8=?= WTF?

[Mikhail Zabaluev <mhz altlinux org>]

Hello Данило,

I'll try to be brief and answer that needs answering...

On Tue, Apr 20, 2004 at 08:05:12PM +0200, Данило Шеган wrote:
>
> "What's this 'n-t-t-r' thing?  What do I put there?"  The friend
> becomes confused, doesn't know what's "n-t-t-r", and says: "I dunno,
> I'll have to come over to help you there".  Time lost, productivity
> lost, everyone loses.

I see your point, the problem is there. That said, it's worth
mentioning that your argument constantly revolves arount HTTP and
C/C++, as these are the only two examples I can think of that can be
misread as Cyrillic. These do require some bootstrap, but it could and
should be provided by sources more appropriate than menu elements
and such.

> Besides, I think Microsoft should use translated names as well.  But,
> they're not free software, so I can't do anything about it (not that I
> care about non-free software).  Gnome *is* free software, and we can
> do the best thing with it.

I sense some Microsoft-bashing here. Of course, Microsoft is the Evil
Empire, but they're anything but stupid. And they spend millions on
usability studies. You can think you "do the best" here, but you'd
better think carefully and come to know what the users really want.

> Just the way to prove your point.  You don't read my mails, and try
> to fight some totalirism that isn't even there.

I'm sorry for possible misunderstanding; I try to see your point the
best I can. And yes, that's more likely a mission taken by a few who
think they get things right, while the rest of the world has
apparently gone wrong, and they are trying to convert newcomers to
their belief using GNOME as their preaching ground.

> When you want to do comparisons, don't compare languages using the
> same script (such as German and English), but rather, try with
> English and Russian.  When was the last time you saw Russian word
> untranscribed/untransliterated in English book/newspaper, except as
> an example of "a Russian text" or something?

Why, never. But I've seen many computer-related product names (but few
generic terms, in contrast) used as-is in Russian books/newspapers.
That's what I try to get across: it's a common, established practice
in Russian, and almost everyone seems to follow it. Well, except some
old books from Soviet era and our GNOME po files.

> Yet, what if a kid sees "C++" there, and wants to learn more about
> it.  It goes to the library looking for "S++", asks friends about it,
> and nobody knows anything.  What then?  Why shouldn't it be easier?
> In Serbia, if I write "Це++" there, whoever the kid might ask, be it
> an expert, or not, will know how to direct the kid: "go buy
> Stroustrup's book", or something.

But that's wrong, the proper translation should be "Си-плюс-плюс".  Or
should it be "Си-плас-плас"?.. Don't you see it's a big bad can of
worms, and enforced transliteration is not even a solution?

> Yeah right.  And this is in what ways better (good?) than not having
> to explain it at all?  Or perhaps having a paragraph or two explaining
> that "Це++" is written as "C++" in English?  What's the difference?

The difference is, English is much bigger in terms of users worldwide.
If you insulate your readers from everything written in English,
you actually do them a disservice, separating them from the
rest of the world.


Anyway, all this is pointless theoretizing. We should learn
what the users really want. I'm not taking any more discussion.

-- 
Stay tuned,
  MhZ                                     JID: mhz altlinux org
___________
static buildup