Re: [gnome-cy] Kartouche (a possible translation aid) - request for feedback

[Rhoslyn Prys <rhoslyn prys ntlworld com>]

Kevin Donnelly wrote:

> Hi Rhoslyn
>
> Your fame precedes you - nice to hear from you.  Sorry for the long post, but 
> some of your points surprised me :-)
>
> On Saturday 22 February 2003 5:56 pm, Rhoslyn Prys wrote:
>  
>
> > Kevin Donnelly wrote:
> >    
> >
> > > For a few months we have been trying to carry on the good work started by
> > > Elfed Lewis in translating KDE into Welsh.
> > >      
> > I'm still awaiting Elfed's response to the work done by myself in
> > translating major parts of KDE two years ago  using standardised terms
> > based on Cysill and Y Termiadur Ysgol.... Most of the work on KDE could
> > have been accomplished by now...  Please give credit to those who have
> > worked on this task.
> >    
>
> Er, and I would have known this how?  Elfed and I independently decided to 
> look at translating KDE around the time of the 1999 Eisteddfod, but he had 
> already applied to become co-ordinator.  Although I did email Elfed quite 
> often over the next 12-18 months on what position he had reached, he wasn't 
> very forthcoming on what was happening, let alone who was contributing.  I 
> have to say that the impression he gave me was that he had laboured through 
> most of kdelibs himself - I don't know what the true historical position is, 
> because I'm not telepathic, I'm afraid (although that will now be my next 
> project :-).  
>
> Thomas Diehl, the co-ordinator on KDE i18n, had in fact classified the Welsh 
> translation as unmaintained, until Elfed agreed with my suggestion 6 months 
> ago that I should take it over, since he was too busy to do any work on it.  
> I have the emails to prove all this (honest!), and you can also check with 
> Dewi, to whom some were copied, since we had earlier (2000) talked about the 
> Moz translation, which, thanks to him, you (and possibly others?) is now 
> virtually complete.  
>
> I understand that you personally have done a great deal of work on various 
> items, and that will be reflected on another page about existing free 
> software in Welsh which is not up on the site yet (since I'm busy writing the 
> manual for the downloadable version :-).  But the basic problem with KDE in 
> Welsh previously was that the input system was not transparent, it involved 
> faffing about with various things on your PC, and there was no feedback (as 
> you note yourself).  That is now in process of being sorted.  And there is a 
> need to bring a greater number of "translators" (ie interested Welsh-speakers 
> or learners, even if they are not professional translators) on board, to open 
> up the whole area beyond a small number of people and ensure that committed 
> volunteers like yourself are not overstretched.  That is what Kartouche and 
> K/100 is all about, and I think it's a good idea, and not before time. 
>
> It's also worth remembering that the initial translation, although a major 
> achievement, is not the end of the matter - translations must be kept current 
> with the ceaseless improvement going on in free software, and that is 
> actually a more difficult task.  Some of the current Welsh translations are 
> in fact not ... 
>
>  
>
> > This sounds like a good idea, see also  Dewi Jones's MTT/L10nzilla
> > translator for Mozilla/Gwe-lywiwr.
> > Please note that there are other programs as well: Gtranslator and
> > poEdit  - poEdit certaily opened the cy-po file.
> >    
>
> Indeed - I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with any of the existing 
> tools, but you can never have too many tools!  All of these are PC-based, and 
> the main aim of Kartouche was to create a distributed (net-aware) resource.  
> Apparently there has been recent discussion on the KBabel list about doing 
> precisely this - Kartouche will give people there something to build on, 
> criticise the shortcomings of ... whatever.  "Let a hundred flowers blossom, 
> let a hundred schools of thought contend", to hijack a quote from a 
> well-known person not committed to the ideals of freedom.
>
>  
>
> > I would suggest that you do not use K as letter within a term for a
> > Welsh language tool, it may have been used in the middle ages but not in
> > modern Welsh and will be viewed as an anglicized term and therefore
> > negatively.
> >    
>
> But it's so Kool that I have to.  I think young people especially may be more 
> attracted to something that is not too "purist".  Free software, above all, 
> is fun - gofynna i fy mab, sydd wedi newydd gorffen prosiect i'r Urdd yn 
> defnyddio 'mond meddalwedd rhydd - mae'n ffan mawr o KGeo rwan.
>
>  
>
> > > date, as you can see, we are planning a "translation campaign" - Kyfieithu 
> > > mewn Kant, or K/100 - which will not only expand the number of translators 
> > > (we hope!), but will also raise awareness of GNU/Linux and KDE in Wales. 
> > >      
> > Excellent,  see also www.gwelywiwr.org and www.meddal.org.uk where there
> > are programs that have been translated and are available - Mozilla,
> > Netscape, Abiword, K-meleon, Opera, Linux-Mandrake, Winamp, CDex,
> > LeechGet, IZArc. OpenOffice is in the process of being translated..
> > Please give them attention...
> >    
>
> Yes indeed - see above.  But I think this also underlines what I said about 
> the need to get some publicity or central awareness about what HAS been done 
> to date, especially if we want to try moving free software into schools or 
> the public sector.  It may be that the translation "summit" that was earlier 
> mooted on this list would be useful in terms of planning not just 
> translations, but also a publicity programme.  Central to this, of course, is 
> the need to make things as simple as possible for people who are not using 
> PCs every day, and don't want to go too much into the innards of things.  
> Dewi and I have also talked about remastering Knoppix to include all the 
> existing Welsh stuff on it, to give an easy-to-use "taster" for people - any 
> views?  You might also want to look at http://www.menai.lug.org.uk, which we 
> have just launched (next meeting 10 March, if you're interested) - this might 
> be a useful way of ensnaring more people as actual users, who can then spread 
> the word.
>
>  
>
> > > My wife (who is a first-language 
> > > Welsh-speaker) thinks the response will be minuscule, but I (as an Irishman) 
> > > live in hope ...
> > >      
> > No doubt she is right, unfortunately.
> >    
>
> But see "Ouch" ff. below ....
>
>  
>
> > > KDE version - the planned translation campaign would start with those
> > > (around 4,200 strings out of the total of about 57,800),
> > >      
> > I've translated much of those already...
> >    
>
> Then those will be up there, along with the ones I added myself before I 
> concluded that there must be a better way.
>
>  
>
> > > http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/kartouche/gwein/index.php, 
> > >      
> > Please correct the mistranslations and miss-spelling on this page...
> >    
>
> Ouch!  Now that's not nice :-(  Please see bottom of Kyfieithu's front-page - 
> Welsh version only.  Would you rather there wasn't a Welsh page at all?  I'm  
> just part of that group of Welsh-speakers by choice rather than birth who 
> like to support Welsh, but who (in common with a lot of ordinary 
> first-language Welsh speakers, I might add) think they don't speak it well 
> enough.  However, I don't believe Welsh is or should be the preserve of a 
> small (and decreasing) number of "keepers of the flame".  Incidentally, I did 
> have a first-language Welsh-speaker look at this initial draft, and it was 
> OK'ed (so her Welsh obviously isn't up to much either!).  Before the final 
> launch I hope to have a professional Welsh translator look at it as well.  
> Perhaps they will mistranslate too ... :-(
>
>  
>
> > The trick here is to use standardised and well known terms - it's not
> > really a democratic process.
> >    
>
> We are talking about free software here, aren't we?  How can you seek to 
> involve more people in translating and using free software if there isn't an 
> element of openness involved?  You can't complain about no-one doing any 
> translating in the one breath, and then criticise anything done towards that 
> in the other, without seeming at best inconsistent and at worst elitist.  
> There may a balance to be struck between involving people whose Welsh is not 
> perfect and having a certain standard of academic Welsh in the final product 
> - we almost certainly differ on where to place that balance in the short 
> term, but both aspects are not mutually exclusive.  I believe (based on 
> earlier experiences in the voluntary sector here) that we need to broaden the 
> appeal and *then* deepen the quality - you would probably place the emphasis 
> the other way around.
>
>  
>
> > I wish you well with the production of the software I'm sure it will be
> > useful for the production of translation of .po files for the Welsh
> > language and hopefully many languages across the world.
> >    
>
> :-) Thank you - the KDE Latin team (yes, it does exist!) is certainly very 
> interested!
>
>  
>
> > What gets me upset is talk and no action, and KDE has been a classic
> > example of this. Creating a useful tool will not create a translation of
> > KDE... Most of the terms for translating software into Welsh are already
> > available in Cysgair and Y Termiadur Ysgol, others (the minority) are
> > available from the Gwelywiwr site, or as .po files from the Linux
> > Mandrake web site. Translation tools are available Kbabel, Gtranslator
> > and poEdit and open source software producers are more than pleased to
> > add another language to their programs. My request to people is, please
> > _get on with i_t and stop messing about. If you prefer messing, please
> > allow others to see that there is work to be done - the Welsh language
> > cannot wait...
> >    
>
> Well, be reasonable, mate ... KDE in Welsh now has a site, a translation tool, 
> and a planned publicity campaign, along with a target date.  That's better 
> than it had a couple of months ago :-).  I have never used Cysgair because I 
> don't use Windows since 2 years ago, and your copy of Y Termiadur must be 
> better than mine: as a linguist in an earlier life, I give it 6/10 - we can 
> discuss the reasons for that off-list, if you like.
>
> You're certainly right that tools are available - all I'm trying to do is to 
> provide one that is slightly easier to use for the average man in the street, 
> and it's average Dais we need if we are to spread the word about free 
> software.  I don't grok your last sentence - surely it'll have to wait if we 
> don't broaden the pool of translators /:-(  Anyway - where would free 
> software be now if people hadn't been messing about all this time?
>
> There's an old story about the English traveller who went to Dublin a good 
> number of years ago, and saw a group of able-bodied workmen trying to pull 
> down a pillar.  However, each man had a rope of his own around the pillar, 
> and was hauling on it for all his worth, sometimes in direct opposition to a 
> fellow on the other side.  The traveller said to the foreman, "Wouldn't it 
> make more sense to attach one rope to the pillar, and get all your men to 
> haul on it?"  The reply was, "Ah, sir, now where would you find 8 Irishmen 
> who can pull together?"
>
> We are all on the same team, really.
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Kevin
>
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>
>  
Kevin,

Thanks for your response, I understand that you are the lead person for 
Welsh KDE and I wish you all the best, it's great to see development 
within Welsh language software.

It may be useful for me to state my viewpoint on the work that I have 
done so far:

1. To provide a range of software in Welsh that Welsh speakers could 
chose to use.
2. To make the software available from the original site if possible so 
as to add to the international recognition of Welsh as a vibrant and 
modern language.
3. To provide information on these piecse of software so that people 
know about them and where to find them.
4. To make the software available now!

Although I am a supporter of open source software, most of the software 
I've translated runs in Windows. I make no appologies for this, the 
possibility of having software in Welsh is in it's infancy and most 
people are wedded to Windows. My primary aim is to show that it is 
possible to have software programs in Welsh, to begin the process of 
bringing the desktop in offices and homes into the Welsh language arena. 
Moving Welsh speakers on to opensource comes next.

I recognise that people may not wish to use Windows and I respect their 
decision, but  at present the main tools for this process are only 
available in Windows. As a result, Linux Mandrake has been translated to 
Welsh using poEdit in Windows, Cysill and Y Tremiadur as well as Cysgair 
for spell checking and typos. I feel comfortable with this system and it 
works for me... The attached file gives you some idea, with this setup. 
I can translate c. 700 lines in an evening to a beta stage which 
includes translation, terminology check and spell check and typos. This 
does not mean they are perfect I'm an expert in miss-translation and 
review, and especially typos - it's all developmental stuff... for 
instance...

Opera v. Gwe-lywiwr

Opera was translated originally by Coleg y Drindod on a EU grant, when 
the grant ended so did the work. The translation was based on the 
shorter version of the verb - gwelwyd, caewyd, rhedir etc. Gwe-lywiwr 
which was translated before I took over  Opera uses the longer forms 
wedi cael ei weld, wedi cael ei gau, etc. The feedback I've recieved so 
far indicates that users prefer the longer form of the verb -' I prefer 
Gwe-lywiwr because it's friendlier' is a common statement, even though 
it's more difficult to get the longer forms into the space allocated for 
the string.

The tone of the translation I've generally used is technical/informal 
and many of the terms are based on working with native speakers in 
Gwynedd Mon and Conwy over a 18 year period as a social worker and 
listening how they use particular words. Builders plumbers and 
electricians have been a particular useful source of terms eg. 
instalation - gosod save - cadw etc. The trouble is that people have a 
thousand reasons not to use Welsh as a medium and we need to develop an 
effective means of communicating wirth them - you will be aware of the 
Welsh translation of the New Testament by William Salesbury which 
preceded the translation by William Morgan in 1588. The translation was 
barely understandable by the Welsh people at the time while William 
Morgan's translation is renown for having stood the test of time. 
Translation is not an elitist task but we have to be aware that poor or 
difficult to understand communication can put people off for ever from 
using Welsh language software. Translating computer concepts can be 
difficult at the best of times and it's important to make them more 
understandable in Welsh than in the original. I try to do that...

Strategic aims...

I believe that a joint strategy would be useful to develop an 
understanding of what people are doing and to consider future possibilities.

1. Efective communication amongst contibutors on aspirations, 
developments and setbacks.
2. Development of a bilingual Linux 'distribution' - soon ther will be a 
Welsh version of OpenOffice available (by the Eisteddfod?) as well as 
updated versions of Gwe-lywiwr and added to Nautilus amongst others, it 
would really be great  to be able tempt the Assembly, Health, Education, 
Local Authorities away from Windows. This could be a version of Koppix 
or DemoLinux or a locally created distribution (sorry, Alan). I'm sure 
we have the expertise...and it would come better from within Wales.
3. Broadband cover - I was recently invited to join the e-fro project to 
provide wireless broadband  cover for Bethesda. Fortunately my 'fame' is 
well confined and it was useful to be part of this interesting 
development. The group is looking at the alternatives at the moment  but 
there may be lessons to be learned for the provision of wireless 
broadband across Wales via satellite.

As you say were all part of the same team...

Rhos