Re: [gnome-cy] Kartouche (a possible translation aid) - request for feedback

[Rhoslyn Prys <rhoslyn prys ntlworld com>]

Kevin Donnelly wrote:

> For a few months we have been trying to carry on the good work started by 
> Elfed Lewis in translating KDE into Welsh.

I'm still awaiting Elfed's response to the work done by myself in 
translating major parts of KDE two years ago  using standardised terms 
based on Cysill and Y Termiadur Ysgol.... Most of the work on KDE could 
have been accomplished by now...  Please give credit to those who have 
worked on this task.

>  While working on this, we began 
> to think that it would be nice if we could use the Web to give other people 
> an easy way to provide input into the process.  There are many advantages to 
> this, and after some work we have put together an application (Kartouche) 
> that seems to meet most of the initial requirements.  The purpose of this 
> posting is to ask for feedback on the idea and the implementation, in the 
> hope that Kartouche might prove useful for Gnome and other other 
> free/open-source apps (eg OpenOffice.org, various PHP apps, etc).  I am 
> emboldened to post a K app on the Gnome list by the fact that Kartouche has 
> imported without complaint the cy.po file that was posted here earlier, 
> whereas KBabel (the current standard translation tool for KDE) refused it :-)
This sounds like a good idea, see also  Dewi Jones's MTT/L10nzilla 
translator for Mozilla/Gwe-lywiwr.
Please note that there are other programs as well: Gtranslator and 
poEdit  - poEdit certaily opened the cy-po file.

> Kartouche uses PHP to load the pot files into a MySQL database (one file to a 
> table), and then provides a front-end for people to add suggested 
> translations, and a back-end for the translation co-ordinator to accept or 
> reject those suggestions.  More information is at:
> http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/kartouche/aboutkart/index.php
>
> The Kyfieithu 

I would suggest that you do not use K as letter within a term for a 
Welsh language tool, it may have been used in the middle ages but not in 
modern Welsh and will be viewed as an anglicized term and therefore 
negatively.

> site has been set up as a clearing house for the KDE translation 
> project, and uses a lightwight bilingual portal of our own devising (which, 
> like Kartouche, will be available for download shortly).  It is not really 
> "live" yet, but (if all goes well!) will be so on 1 March, because on that
>
> date, as you can see, we are planning a "translation campaign" - Kyfieithu 
> mewn Kant, or K/100 - which will not only expand the number of translators 
> (we hope!), but will also raise awareness of GNU/Linux and KDE in Wales. 
Excellent,  see also www.gwelywiwr.org and www.meddal.org.uk where there 
are programs that have been translated and are available - Mozilla, 
Netscape, Abiword, K-meleon, Opera, Linux-Mandrake, Winamp, CDex, 
LeechGet, IZArc. OpenOffice is in the process of being translated.. 
Please give them attention...

> If 
> you have any comments or suggestions about this, I would also be glad to 
> receive them - also any contact addresses.  My wife (who is a first-language 
> Welsh-speaker) thinks the response will be minuscule, but I (as an Irishman) 
> live in hope ...
No doubt she is right, unfortunately.

> The Kartouche user interface is at 
> http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/kartouche/index.php.  Suggested translations can 
> be offered by using the "Start translating" link.  The files (tables) 
> available for translation are the ones suggested as essential for 
> a Welsh KDE version - the planned translation campaign would start with those 
> (around 4,200 strings out of the total of about 57,800),
I've translated much of those already...

> and as those get 
> finished, then add the others progressively. 
>
> The admin interface is at 
> http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/kartouche/gwein/index.php, 
Please correct the mistranslations and miss-spelling on this page...

> and is currently not 
> protected in any way (although it will be!).  Suggested translations can be 
> moved over to become final translations by using the "Accept suggestions" 
> link.  Please note that the Export and Import links do not work on the Web as 
> yet - they are intended to be used on the co-ordinator's local copy of 
> Kartouche.  
>
> With both user and admin interfaces, feel free to enter suggestions (no 
> profanities please!) and commit them, since the site is currently under test.
The trick here is to use standardised and well known terms - it's not 
really a democratic process.

> The key issue, of course, is whether our import/export mechanisms will give 
> acceptable po files.  We have done a lot of work on this, comparing the 
> originals and the Kartouche exports, and we believe that the answer is yes 
> (only one of the 550-odd files refused to import correctly, and that was 
> because it was the only one without comment lines).  Clearly more testing 
> would need to be done to ensure that the import/export filters are effective, 
> but using this approach opens the possibility of preparing filters for other 
> free/open-source apps, and leveraging existing translations/translators into 
> those - this might be especially important in the struggle to keep 
> translations in sync with new versions of the software.
>
> Some figures:
> - the 550 non-docs pot files get imported into the db in about 1min 40 secs;
> - kdelibs gets imported in around 10 secs.
>
> We are referring to the current version of Kartouche as 0.0.1alpha, which 
> means that although it is stable and seems to work OK, it could do with some 
> code-cleanup, a review of security, etc.  However, its use on 
> Kyfieithu will produce real-world information on its robustness - performance 
> there will be useful in determining how Kartouche needs to be improved, and 
> even if we end up copying everything by hand into KBabel, Kyfieithu/Kartouche 
> will have served its purpose in raising awareness of open-source in Wales.  
> We are working to get the files and installation notes packaged as a 
> downloadable, and this should be ready by the weekend.  Once that is 
> available, it should be possible for more people to test it in the comfort of 
> their own PCs.

I wish you well with the production of the software I'm sure it will be 
useful for the production of translation of .po files for the Welsh 
language and hopefully many languages across the world.

What gets me upset is talk and no action, and KDE has been a classic 
example of this. Creating a useful tool will not create a translation of 
KDE... Most of the terms for translating software into Welsh are already 
available in Cysgair and Y Termiadur Ysgol, others (the minority) are 
available from the Gwelywiwr site, or as .po files from the Linux 
Mandrake web site. Translation tools are available Kbabel, Gtranslator 
and poEdit and open source software producers are more than pleased to 
add another language to their programs. My request to people is, please 
_get on with i_t and stop messing about. If you prefer messing, please 
allow others to see that there is work to be done - the Welsh language 
cannot wait...

Rhoslyn Prys

> Best wishes
>
> Kevin Donnelly
>
>
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>
>  




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