Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 07:56:31PM -0400, Jody Goldberg wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 02:55:07PM +0000, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 07:00:58AM -0400, Jody Goldberg wrote:
> > > 2) OOX is a file format that is in use, and we will have to interact
> > >    with it.  The opportunity to improve the spec and have MS answer
> > >    questions and clarify necessary details should not be wasted.
> > 
> > Microsoft has done it's very best to ensure it doesn't *have*to* improve
> > the spec, to avoid any questions, and not clarify anything.
> That statement is false.

Are you using ddate? :)

I am a member of the Portuguese TC, and I witnessed first hand what has
been reported by many others, so don't you dare telling me it's false.

ISO rules are clear, if issues are to be dealt with, vote NO WITH
COMMENTS, otherwise, VOTE YES (you may add some editorial or other
comments), in which case you are ready to accept the proposal as

So whily one may argue that you *can* send techincal issues on a YES
vote, one definitely doesn't *have*to* deal with them unless it's a NO

Anyone who made pressure for a YES vote made a pressure for *not*having*
*to* improve the spec, and nobody other than Microsoft (and its
stoogies) have done so.

> The SpreadsheetML rep may not have been thrilled with my questions,
> but the majority were answered.  More people could have joined ECMA,
> or participated in the ISO review process constructively had they
> wanted to. 

ECMA is out of the board right now, since it's JTC1 who makes changes
and not ECMA.

Who are you insinuating about a not making a constructive process at ISO?

Are you conscious that SC-34 is virtually stopped because the Microsoft
stoogies who have the obligation to vote do not vote on issues that are
not Microsoft related?

People have tried, but Microsoft turned the TC's in a "fill the chairs"
game, actually bought votes, actually forged the support of the
Andaluzian regional government of Spain, here in Portugal we've found
*evidence* of one member who did not go to the TC to make a technical
appreciation, etc... etc...

> MS is far for perfect, but the team working with ECMA
> has been helpful and cordial.   There may be some Machiavellian evil
> designs back in Redmond pulling their strings, but doing the right
> thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing.

But doing wrong things for the wrong reasons has no merit at all.

> Better docs for their formats is better for the FLOSS community.

> > >     'the MS Office XML File Format'
> > > and that we should do everything we can to improve the specification
> > > of that and any other format we interact with.
> > 
> > I've really really tried, but ...
> Nonsense.  When GNOME joined ECMA I made an open request for other
> members to join the TCs of interest.  You could easily have
> contacted me and had direct access to the MS reps.  With the
> capability to open issues and suggestions on how to clarify the
> spec.

Nonsese, says you. I had direct access to Microsoft representatives as
well, and even a Microsoft expert. Microsoft decided to spend their
money and time for two and half weeks calling me a liar, on blogs and
even on a newspaper here (but this last part didn't go so well for them
since I invoked the right of reply and totally shattered their

> > > If that level of disagreement is unacceptable in the community
> > > then I can leave ECMA and request that they discontinue the
> > > GNOME Foundation's membership.
> > 
> > It would seem you aren't making that strong an effort to represent the
> > possibility of Free Software developers fully implementing the standard,
> > maybe you should in fact make it better, rather than threaten to leave.
> This was an offer not a threat.  I'd be charitable characterising my
> thoughts as a minority opinion in GNOME, and the FLOSS community.
> It is uncomfortable acting as a representative of the foundation in
> a role that many members do not agree should exist.  My private
> preferences should not negatively impact the foundation, or go
> against the will of the majority of members.  I offer to step down
> if the board feels this membership is detrimental to GNOME.
> Snide comments about not making a 'strong an effort' to 'fully'
> 'make it better' are rude.  The Novell reps and I are the only FLOSS
> or ODF aware people who have bothered to join ECMA TC45.  Start
> helping out and I'll take your pontification more seriously.

It is not the membership that is really detrimental, although you can
bet Microsoft is spinning around that "open source likes OOXML" thanks
to that. Don't say they don't say this, they were even caught, here in
Portugal, claiming "OSI approved Shared Source", so they *do* take all
opportunities they can to fake support.

It's statements like some of yours that are detrimental, but nothing
that you can't fix by making a better job for the community, if you can,
of course, since nobody demands of you to loose family time, etc...


Hail Eris!
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 12nd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

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