[Usability] Re: Menu order.

[Patrick Costello <Patrick Costello Sun COM>]

usability-request gnome org wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:33:26 +0200
> From: Christian Neumair <chris gnome-de org>
> Subject: Re: [Usability] Menu order
> To: markus hammer <hm sabotage at>
> Cc: Gnome UI <usability gnome org>
> Message-ID: <1092069206 9838 10 camel widget>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Am Sonntag, den 08.08.2004, 20:04 +0200 schrieb markus hammer:
>
> > Am Son, den 08.08.2004 um 19:33 Uhr +0200 schrieb Samuel Abels:
> >
> > > On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 02:49, Christoffer Olsen wrote:
> > >
> > > > I usually run my Gnome in English, but today I ran it in Norwegian. All
> > > > of a sudden, I noticed that my GNOME menu was reordered - alphabetized,
> > > > that is. It is alphabetized in English too, thus Accessories is on top,
> > > > and not at the bottom, as it is now. I got confused by this until I
> > > > understood what happened, and then I got atuned to it.
> > >
> > > Yes, I would love to see a better solution either. I am using a german
> > > menu at work and an english language menu at home and this confuses me
> > > all the time.
> > >
> > > The only alternative solution would be a fixed order (right?), but I
> > > would still prefer that. Isn't it better to sort the list by semantics
> > > then by syntax anyway?
> >
> > i encountered this too. its utterly unlogical, dont know if i ever filed
> > a bug report though. a good example - the german gnome menu has desktop
> > settings as second entry. 
> > it should be consistent across different locales, so i would vote for a
> > semantic list as well.
>
>
> The problem is that having them not sorted alphabetically may confuse
> users who don't know that our order was intentional. Maybe we've to
> figure out what order fits our needs best. We've got to consider what
> applications most people use before deciding how we sort it. Another
> solution would be to add a gconf keys containing a list of preferred
> application menu entries that (if they exist) should be shown in that
> order before the rest is appended afterwards. Of course, the most
> intuitive order has to be the default.
> Proposed order that springs to mind:
>
> Desktop Preferences
> Office
> Internet
> Multimedia
> Graphics
> Development
> Games
> Accessoires
> System Tools
> Other
> [Rest]
>
> I'll look into implementing it for GNOME 2.10 :).
>
> regs,
>  Chris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:15:50 +0200
> From: Christian Neumair <chris gnome-de org>
> Subject: Re: [Usability] Menu order
> To: markus hammer <hm sabotage at>
> Cc: Gnome UI <usability gnome org>
> Message-ID: <1092078951 4167 4 camel widget>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Am Montag, den 09.08.2004, 18:33 +0200 schrieb Christian Neumair:
>
> > Am Sonntag, den 08.08.2004, 20:04 +0200 schrieb markus hammer:
> >
> > > Am Son, den 08.08.2004 um 19:33 Uhr +0200 schrieb Samuel Abels:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 02:49, Christoffer Olsen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I usually run my Gnome in English, but today I ran it in Norwegian. All
> > > > > of a sudden, I noticed that my GNOME menu was reordered - alphabetized,
> > > > > that is. It is alphabetized in English too, thus Accessories is on top,
> > > > > and not at the bottom, as it is now. I got confused by this until I
> > > > > understood what happened, and then I got atuned to it.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I would love to see a better solution either. I am using a german
> > > > menu at work and an english language menu at home and this confuses me
> > > > all the time.
> > > >
> > > > The only alternative solution would be a fixed order (right?), but I
> > > > would still prefer that. Isn't it better to sort the list by semantics
> > > > then by syntax anyway?
> > >
> > > i encountered this too. its utterly unlogical, dont know if i ever filed
> > > a bug report though. a good example - the german gnome menu has desktop
> > > settings as second entry. 
> > > it should be consistent across different locales, so i would vote for a
> > > semantic list as well.
> >
> > The problem is that having them not sorted alphabetically may confuse
> > users who don't know that our order was intentional. Maybe we've to
> > figure out what order fits our needs best. We've got to consider what
> > applications most people use before deciding how we sort it. Another
> > solution would be to add a gconf keys containing a list of preferred
> > application menu entries that (if they exist) should be shown in that
> > order before the rest is appended afterwards. Of course, the most
> > intuitive order has to be the default.
> > Proposed order that springs to mind:
> >
> > Desktop Preferences
> > Office
> > Internet
> > Multimedia
> > Graphics
> > Development
> > Games
> > Accessoires
> > System Tools
> > Other
> > [Rest]
> >
> > I'll look into implementing it for GNOME 2.10 :).
>
>
> It was simpler than I though! The attached set of patches sets the order
> according to the list above.
> Note that it may break your existing folders if you modified them
> because ~/.gnome2/vfolders is and will be on crack as long as we have a
> new menu system.

Setting the menu order to a pre-set list across locales is an extraordinary 
and wide-ranging step. I think that this topic should be discussed much 
more rigorously before anybody applies patches to "fix" this "issue". There 
are very good reasons why the order should be set alphabetically in every 
language, for example:

- All users, regardless of their alphabet background, are trained from an 
early age to locate an item in a list primarily using the alphabet as a 
basic navigational tool. If we remove this framework, then we need to 
replace the alphabet with another framework that is equally powerful. 
Therein lies the difficulty.

- If we define a pre-set list, such as the one mentioned in this thread, 
what is to say that this pre-set list is universal across all locales? Even 
in those locales where the pre-set list is correctly ordered in descending 
popularity, you still require your user to hunt through the whole list 
every time they want to find a new menu. There are no familiar alphabetical 
sign-posts to navigate by.

- Any pre-set list would of necessity be a compromise. All those users who 
prefer seeing "Email" and "Games" at the top of the menu, and "Desktop 
Preferences" last on the menu, will be cheesed off by the pre-set list 
suggested above. I am not saying that I know of a better pre-set list, only 
that any pre-set list is bound to be non-intuitive to a majority of people.

- Alphabetical ordering is standard UI design practise. Users worldwide are 
accustomed to this approach.

I also often look at the German and Spanish versions of the GNOME desktop, 
for comparisons. When I change languages, I >>never<< expect to see menu 
items in the same place. I just follow the alphabet, and I find the menu 
item I am looking for.

Maybe I haven't understood the above thread properly, and what is under 
discussion is the following:

- Default behavior: alphabetical ordering across all locales.
- Customizable user behavior: provision of a set-list option in Desktop 
Preferences.

Pat