Re: [NEWS] Sawfish has tabbing support (finally

A Doc would be really great. Both a really good dev- and userdoc. and a
tutorial for librep beginners. This is a good idea I can tell, since I
only learned python/gtk by the tutorial - that has been all. So a that
high-quality tutorial for librep is a must-have.

About incompatible changes: Currently there's only one (sawmill-defautls
-> sawfish-defaults). we could do a cat README.IMPORTANT at the end of
configure, or place a good visible (differently colored) message that
users should read that file. And sawfish 1.5.0 _is_ for incompatible
changes, before 3.0 this is the last chance to do so. All we got to do
is to make sure users actually know about that changes.

A rewrite of tabs sounds good, but: Nathan Froyd made several changes to
the tab-system and it's his improved version that got in, so perhaps a
rewrite is not necessary? Either way, who is willing to do that? Due to
lack of docs my skills are not enough to do that.

But well, it still a long time 'till sawfish 1.5.0 will be released.
There's a lot of work to do, it will be released, when it's finished.
Here are the major points:

- There have been api-changes in both gtk+2.13 and 2.15 (I'm pretty sure
that this is the reason, why sawfish-ui is broken on my system) Just to
be sure I'll make a diff from 1.3.5 to current svn and check the changes
in lisp/sawfish/ui. So there will be a lot of work in rep-gtk

- Get rid of deprecated widgets in sawfish-ui

- Think of additional default bindings, for common actions (Iconify,
Maximization et cetera) - I will make a list of proposed ones and then
you can give some comments, may take some time.

- All from proposed goals

- Fix long outstanding bugs (openoffice + warp-cursor / microGUI issues
and others, see bgo -> sawfish)

And what about and ...
I'm not willing to update those pages. Have extra pages for them on

... If someone of you wants to have full access to the bugzilla entries
of librep/rep-gtk/sawfish, then just let me know and mail me your bgo
account name. Same for SVN.

@Andrea: Any news on --restart option/sawfish-ui issues you said you
would have a look at? -No need to hurry.


Am Freitag, den 06.02.2009, 17:15 +0900 schrieb Teika Kazura:
> Hi. 
> > Sawfish does now ship tabbing support! 
> Congratulations! Let me take this opportunity to express my gratitude
> to you, Chris. Despite of your hard work, we often take it as
> granted. Your contribution is incomparable (save JSH :).
> But let us be professional here, stopping for a moment.
> In short, it should be at least marked as 'experimental', maybe be
> postponed. Let me explain.
> It's clear that tab is still in its cradle. (Sorry, I have not yet
> tried tab, but it's still obvious.) It will go under changes, and it
> is more than likely that they are incompatible. 
> To quote myself, a release is not for the developer or fan's
> community, but for the whole world. In addition, it is a window
> manager, a user interface. For most people, it is indispensable. But
> suppose, one day incompatible changes happen, and they easily require
> them hours to adjust. Many people can't forgive it. (Let me quote
> myself again, "Imagine, 'What?! ... Sawfish sucks!!! I need M*tacity
> or whatever!'") 
> How can the goal be reached? For one thing, I think it's reasonable to
> demand ourselves that the release should wait for the good documents
> of the tab. 
> It's for users, of course, but also for developers. Writing process of
> a document is a very good testing stone of the understanding and the
> quality. Also it gives more power to the coders, since the act
> of explanation improves their own understandings. 
> If any effort of writing doc results in messy ones, then the design
> was wrong. Document includes how to implement tab-capable theme, too. 
> Opensource projects too often fail because of the lack or the
> insufficiency of the documents. (Even commercial products suck by
> idiots' writing.) I remember I often got frustrated in this point
> using sawfish/librep. (Ack gives me a partial remedy of it, but it has
> nothing to do with rep/sawfish ;)
> I'd emphasize the importance of the document. It'd be a bad behavior
> to make it as a pretext to indicate tab as 'experimental' (and saying,
> 'don't worry, it's an RC anyway!'), a pretext to neglect the doc
> preparation. Once been idle, the idleness sticks.
> If tips are available, it's charming. I liked Rodrigo Amestica's
> suggestion on term's names.
> # To be more precise, 'experimental: designs may be changed in future
> # release' is the appropriate warning.
> Techno fans are eager to try new things. They know well and are full
> of ideas, so releasing an experimental feature can be a good
> act. We'd better devise a way to listen to their voice.
> Another way is to plan extensions and improvements, you can't foresee
> all though, and to actually implement some. If they fit smoothly to
> the existing code, then it indirectly proves that the design is
> good. If ad-hoc crooky coding is required, it means 're-design
> it. period.' (How cruel! but it's true.) 
> Again a general reminder: be a bit patient, first write out your
> intent before you code. See what was done and what needed change.
> Write out the final design.
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:18:45 +0100, GSR wrote:
> > The current ideas seem to be that it is slightly complex, current
> > method is a bit hackish and last coder is highly busy. 
> To tell you what, before Chris' message appear, I was about to post
> something similar to what you read now, and it contained one more
> point: if GSR's observation is good (I believe in GSR's words
> quality.), then implementing tabs from scratch can be a choice. It
> must be not so diffcult, after having one. Let us be confident, we've
> already got one work, so anyway we're close to the first goal. Maybe I
> have to work on tab, leaving toddler wiki.
> > I keep on thinking about it, *but did not get much feedback from 
> > last posts.* 
> *'s are put by me. Yeah, let's discuss! ... if you have time ...
> Conclusion again: a release should feature enough tested tab
> implementation. 
> I'm all ears. Any comments are welcome.
> # Status: I have not yet tested animator. I think I can post a cleanup
> # patch after Ian Zimmerman's iconify patch tomorrow.
> Sincerely,
> Teika kazura

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