Re: [orca-list] Let's celebrate! Red hat has hired a blind person to improve accessibility!

[Lukáš Tyrychtr <lukastyrychtr gmail com>]

Hello,

thanks for all the pointers.

Regards,

Lukáš

Dne 28.06.2022 v 13:02 Hammer Attila napsal(a):
> Hi Lukáš,
>
> First, I congratulate for you the new job in Red6, and I wish you 
> successful results in Red6 for your accessibility improvements.
> Even the two of us have similar careers, the only difference being 
> that I don't have a degree in software engineering, I'm just a 
> programmer, and i don't have a university degree. :-):-)
> I’m completely visually impaired, I don’t see any light at all, but 
> I’ve been using the computer since I was ten, I’ve been using Linux 
> since 1999 (usual Debian based distributions primary level). :-) :-)
> I am gratifying for the result you have achieved, I wish you to be at 
> Red6 for a long time and achieve as many successful results as 
> possible and find happiness in your work, similar with me in IT 
> Foundation for the Visually Impaired - Hungary, where I have been 
> working for twenty-two years in Hungary.
>
> I am a screen reader user too (similar with other Orca-list users), I 
> not using Fedora (using Debian my primary job), but experienced 
> similar results.
>
>  A technique suggestion with possible easyest future your work with 
> automatic testing related, or ci/cd integration if tool is not 
> obsolete already for GTK4:
> With Orca screen reader very oldest time when I developed Gtk3 
> applications, and when I tested missing labels in glade files with 
> external apps I used a tool to automatic checking Glade files, the 
> tool name is gla11y tool.
> Link:
> https://github.com/hypra/gla11y
> Other possible useful link:
> https://blends.debian.org/accessibility/tasks/devel
>
> if tool is not obsolete already for GTK4, perhaps easyest your work, 
> or automatic CI/CD integration designing for GNOME applications main 
> Gitlab repositoryes. Of course this tool is not equals the manual 
> testing, but oldest time me this tool helped founded and collected the 
> trivial issues by applications level, without I need manual looking 
> tab and SHIFT+TAB key combination all windows and dialogs to detect 
> all objects are focusable, not need me open all dialogs with all page 
> tabs to detect the trivial issues. Some time if I detected a trivial 
> easy fixable thing (for example a missing mnemonic_vidget property a 
> label related, or missing underline mnemonic character a control label 
> related), if not have UI freeze or string freeze, I sent the proper 
> tested full ready patch the affected application developer in 
> Bugzilla, and I described why need fixing this issue to provide he's 
> application better screen reader compatibility. Usual the full ready 
> fix developers accepted and committed the fix the proper source 
> repository.
>
> In GNOME level I think have a relative good Accessible development 
> documentation, all keyboard level code practices and standards for 
> accessibility are documented, the documentation is accessible and 
> readable.
> The practice is very simple, the developers need doing two things 
> designing and development work related:
> - Designing level need fill the required trivial properties (for 
> example if define a label a combo box related, please set the 
> mnemonic_vidget property in Glade3 the proper combobox related), or 
> fill a tooltip an image button related, or if not would like developer 
> doing a screen visible description, fill the accessible description 
> the button label, and voala, Orca says the right wanted  object 
> description, similar in HTML a link text, or an aria label.
>
> - Second, vhen the dialog is ready, in designing level the developer 
> simple need test the new window, without a mouse only a pure keyboard 
> and screen reader. All dialog elements are focusable keyboard? If yes, 
> fantastic, we step next task. Screen reader reads the proper 
> description with focused objects? Yes or no? If no, fix the visual 
> vidget proper object property designing level (not after application 
> is released), and forward next task. :-):-)
> Possible this is not always possible, but designing level easyest 
> doing this things future.
>
> Gnome accessibility developer documentation link:
> https://developer.gnome.org/documentation/guidelines/accessibility.html
>
> GNOME accessibility Wiki:
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility
>
> Perhaps outdated testing wiky:
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Testing
>
> Samuel, the gla11y tool is obsoleted or still work and compatible with 
> GTK4 Glade files to easyest CI/CD integration implementation with 
> GNOME3 Gitlab application source repositoryes, and easying Lukáš work 
> or other GNOME upstream developers work, independent works for Red6 or 
> not?
>
> The longer purpose is perhaps following, Linux distributions 
> independent I think:
> We need determine Linux distributions independent better quality 
> assurance requirements step up, and determine a minimum quality to an 
> UI design what trivial fixes need resolve before developers have final 
> commit the final results and releases a GNOME or Mate release. Perhaps 
> the section 508 accessibility rule sets this quality assurance is 
> defined, but I am not full sure this. Section 508 is only USA level 
> accepted, or world wide level?
> I found only this link:
> https://www.section508.gov/manage/laws-and-policies/
>
> I say a very positive example since 12 years:
> For example Liblouis level a language Braille change must meet very 
> strict quality assurance requirements before it can be included in the 
> Liblouis main source repository. The Braille table or a code-level 
> change must pass the defined international language corpus tests and 
> the code-level tests that you defined recently before version 3.22 (no 
> memory leaks, no other problems, etc.). Automatic CI/CD accessibility 
> problem testing need At the Gnome level, this phenomenon should be 
> addressed, not Linux distributions level, to avoid fragmentation with 
> various fixes. This way, not only the Fedora distribution could 
> benefit from the results, but any open source distribution that uses 
> the GNOME release.
>
> A second, only technique question for you:
> With screen reader you what designing tool use when designing UI 
> windows for GTK applications? Oldest time I used medimum level the 
> Glade3 application (version is the 3.22.1 version if remember right), 
> but if I remember right, the newest versions the palette window and 
> designing area is not very accessible for screen reader. For example 
> the TAB and SHIFT+TAB key combinations if I remember right not works 
> the newest version, but I now not have possibility to verify for you 
> this for example an Arch Linux virtual box.
>
> In the Glade 3.22 version when I developed and designed a hungarian 
> Braille Editor application for hungarian visually impaired people (the 
> application called with Infoalap Braille Editor), because in the IT 
> Foundation for the Visually Impaired - Hungary only me have knowledge 
> and experience to doing the designing related works to provide maximal 
> screen reader compatibility, when I doed the designing related works 
> in Glade, I more time need use previous the flat review feature in 
> Orca. But the Glade 3.22.1 version in palette window possible move TAB 
> and SHIFT+TAB keys and have possibility to click the right control in 
> palette window and designer areas if I need place the future 
> application or dialog window a check box, combo box, edit box, normal 
> label, etc. After this, the object inspector or I think the proper 
> component property editor window I simple need customize the 
> properties. For example if the palette window not spoken orca right 
> the proper control label (for example a future check box control with 
> I need adding the future application or dialgue designed window), I 
> simple need press CTRL+F1 key and the tooltips are vonderful spokened 
> when I require.
>
> So, in the application development cicle I wonderful designed the 
> final dialogs and windows in the Glade 3.22.1 version, the full app is 
> wonderful accessible designing level with screen reader. Hopefully 
> future I get back this freedom once for Glade3, or an another designer 
> app for GTK4.
>
> So, congratulate for your new work, and thanks if you have suggestion 
> for me with Glade3 screen reader usage related.
>
> Sorry if my english is not always right, my primary language is 
> hungarian.
> Kind regards,
>
> Attila Hammer
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> GNOME Universal Access guide: 
> https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html