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Re: [orca-list] Changes/ finetuning for Progressbar Beeps

I would encourage concieving progress tones by starting with the
increment you want to map, i.e.

0 to 100 percent, but by what step increment?

I would expect the answer is very different when we speak of an ISO file
of a DVD than of a 20 page word processor document.

Two octaves of semi-tones yields 25 increments, so approx 4% per
increment.

If that's single tones, it might be OK, even for a small doc. In other
words, if we were to drop the notion of indicating each increment by an
interval (whether simultaneous or sequential--chord or melodic, in music
terms), and simply play a note at that transition point, the ISO file
would clearly indicate progress, and the word processor file would sound
as a single sweeping musical gesture--probably a bit dramatic, but maybe
that's not so bad.

Yes, we should hear what this might sound like. I'll try to gen up a few
mp3s, though I really need to be reinstalling my OS this weekend!

Janina

B. Henry writes:

I certainly agree that not all available tones should play when progress updates very quickly. 
I'd like more than 2 octaves myself assuming that half steps are used, i.e. 12 available tones per octave, 
so that there would be somewhat fine grained 
progress output available, but perhaps 4 octaves is more than is needed. 
This is the kind of thing I'd like to be able to test. I could generate the tones myself with sox and 
experiment to find an optimal range I suppose.



-- 
     B.H.
   Registerd Linux User 521886


  Janina Sajka wrote:
Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 03:11:05PM -0400


1.) It should be pleasing to the ear. This is not a difficult
requirement.  It requires choosing pitches well. I suspect there are
several of us here who can help with that.

2.) If pitched too low, that's easily fixed. I would expect pitch
would range no lower than around 200Hz, and no higher than around 880Hz.
That's a bit more than two octaves, which should be more than adequate.

3.) There needs to be a mechanism to prevent all tones from sounding
iteratively on a small download.

Regretably, I'm not in position to patch Orca and rebuild. I'm
rebuilding my main machine, possibly leaving Fedora for Arch over the
coming holliday weekend.

If someone here applies the patch and is able to provide a recording,
mp3 for instance, that could be helpful to those of us who can't do the
build just now.

Janina

B. Henry writes:

Last I remember hearin nvda progress I was aware of deltas in tone, they were not pretty or pleaseing 
to the ear, but one could hear the change , and have 
a rough idea as to whether  there had been mulch progress or not, and could at least judge whether 
something was in the 1, 2, 3, or 4th quarter of the bar 
with out having heard the rest, probably much more, just giving a rough outline of how I dould use the 
data that came through my ears.
Could you send me your patch and tell me where to apply it please, or send a link to it if that is 
easier?
Thanks, 

-- 
     B.H.
   Registerd Linux User 521886


  Nolan Darilek wrote:
Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 09:43:32AM -0500


For my patch, you don't necessarily need to know the musical notes, but I
think perceptually it's easier to grasp an octave range than it is to grasp
the current arbitrary way things are now. You can't just pick out frequency
numbers and scale things linearly between them, because a) that's not how
our perception of sound works and b) I'd venture that fewer folks know what
4000 Hz sounds like vs. an octave, even if they don't know what an octave
is. I've heard NVDA's progress beeps hundreds of times, but even so I still
don't know what frequency they end on and what that sounds like. Can't speak
to Orca's anymore because I've forked it with my patch applied.


On 06/29/2016 09:39 AM, Fernando Botelho wrote:

Sorry Joanie. i did not express myself clearly enough.

I like percentages as they are, and having the beeping option is
probably nice, but not at the cost of losing those percentages. So all
is well with the way Orca speaks progress updates now; granted I should
give it a try as I have not downloaded anyhthing in a while.

But the focus  of my email was the fact that music terminology means
nothing to the vast majority of people; so it would be nice to have
aolternating beeps. It was just a suggestion.

It would be nice if we all knew what C sounds like, but unfortunately
this is not the case.

Fernando


On 06/29/2016 11:23 AM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

Hey Fernando.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that instead of speaking progress
bar percentages via speech-dispatcher (which Orca has done for many
years), Orca should instead speak them via espeak? Or are you saying
that Orca isn't speaking progress bars? If the latter, and if you're
sure that you have that setting enabled and have selected an appropriate
interval and source (all, current app, current window), then that sounds
like a bug to me and I'd like specific steps to reproduce the problem.

Thanks!
--joanie

On 06/29/2016 09:46 AM, Fernando Botelho wrote:

I remember hearing progress beeps on NVDA and also being pretty
lost, as
i did not know how high they were supposed to go.

I wish both Orca and NVDA could give just a percentage via
espeak, or if
beeping is a must, then alternate between current stage and final beep.

So if final beep were 400hz., then beep alternating 300hz 400hz, 310hz
400hz, 320hz 400hz, 330hz 400hz, and so forth.

Best,

Fernando


On 06/29/2016 10:36 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I’d like progress beeps that pan from left to right instead of using
pitch, because most of the time I don’t know exactly how high the
pitch goes.
Sent from my Mac.

Devin Prater
r d t prater gmail com




On Jun 29, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Peter Vágner <pvdeejay gmail com> wrote:

Hello,


I have looked at the issue you have linked to and I am somewhat
shocked that Nolan's patch has been put aside with somewhat
disrespectfull attitude.


To us non musicians or not very sensitive to individual tones it
might appear as something what may not be needed however I know some
people who might really benefit from having clean predictable like
implementation Nolan has suggested.


Can you Chrys and Joanie get back to that please and reconsider it?


Greetings


Peter




On 29.06.2016 at 11:55 chrys87 web de <mailto:chrys87 web de> wrote:

Hi Joanie, Hi List,
   I did some finetuning on the progressbar beeps caused by
userrequests.
You could find them attached on that ticket:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758328
<https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758328>
   I made two changes:
1. make the beeps more short.
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=330508
<https://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=330508>
   2. Ignore Interval for the beeps. That only make sense for Output
that needs "time to present". People like to activate both; Beeps
for an progess gues, the voice/ braile output for precise
information in big intervals.
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=330509
<https://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=330509>
   What does others think about that here?
cheers chrys


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Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org



_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


-- 

Janina Sajka,       Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
                    sip:janina asterisk rednote net
            Email:  janina rednote net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures    http://www.w3.org/wai/apa



-- 

Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
                        sip:janina asterisk rednote net
                Email:  janina rednote net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:       http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures        http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
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