GNOME.org
 

Re: [orca-list] eclipse progress

Is a hammer better than a screw driver?  Is a mallet better than a set of pliers?  Computers and the 
platforms that are on them are tools, nothing more.  To say that one is better than the other has always 
struck me as over simplistic and pointless.  There are some tasks more easily or efficiently performed by a 
blind person on one platform versus another.  I have always been baffled by the fierce loyalty displayed to a 
platform by people.  I can understand developers getting particular about what platform they like working on 
and all the libre stuff and so forth but an end user is not best served by such thinking.  It is cold comfort 
to me, for instance, to know that Gvim is free and open source if I can't use it and I can't code well enough 
to make it usable.  So, I go to Emacspeak.  But, you know, there are people fiercely dedicated to Vi editors 
who turn their nose up at Emacs and vise versa.  They make all sorts of assumptions about somebody based on 
what editor they want to use when, in fact, it's just a matter of what someone finds works for him best.  So, 
when it comes to platforms, same thinking applies.  Each has its pros and cons.  Sure they can all do pretty 
much the same things but, some are better suited for certain things than others.  For instance, my mother 
used to nail up her pictures with the heel of one of her shoes till I bought her this nice pink 3 lb hammer 
she uses now.  Yeah, she got the job done with the shoe but, the hammer works better for it.  You can't wear 
the hammer on your feet though so, out comes the shoe.  See what I'm going for here?

Alex M




-----Original Message-----
From: kendell clark [mailto:coffeekingms gmail com] 
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 5:54 PM
To: Alex Midence; 'Christopher Chaltain'; 'Al Sten-Clanton'; 'Michał Zegan'; orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] eclipse progress

hi
I'm not a windows person. I'd be more apt to tell you that you can do everything you say you use windows for 
with inux. Having said that, it's your computer. At least you're not insisting that "your" platform is better 
than all the others, which is really a breath of fresh air.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/21/2015 09:46 AM, Alex Midence wrote:

Sadly, the gulf between should and is spans wide.  As for the numbers, I strongly suspect that they are 
heavily based on U.S. trends for the market share.  I personally think it's probably closer to 10% instead 
of 1 or 2.  

It's stuff like this that convinced me to always keep my mind open to all platforms.  It is important to 
remember that the whole point of using a computer is to get a certain job done.  If you can't get it done 
with one platform, another must be employed for the purpose.  It's why I use three for various tasks I like 
to do.  They all have their strengths and their weaknesses.  I am happy to have the ability to switch back 
and forth which is something we did not have when I was younger, I can tell you.  

Example:  I like Linux for learning code and for stuff like LaTEx and to do basic desktop type things.  I 
like Windows for stuff like writing online courses, professional documents and presentations.  I like IOS 
for stuff like social media, eBooks, calendars and gaming.  When I have the funds, I think I'll invest in a 
Kindle because they are supposed to be awesome for books and I do a lot of reading.  

Just my two cents,
Alex M

-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of 
kendell clark
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 7:44 PM
To: Christopher Chaltain; Al Sten-Clanton; Michał Zegan; 
orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] eclipse progress

hi
A slight nod, yes. But not an obvious advantage. Don't mind me, I'm just feeling a little ... what's the 
word ... overlooked. I have zero proof that eclipse does any of this. I do think other projects do this, 
and this isn't right. Linux should at the very least be equal to those other platforms. I also don't buy 
the "linux only has 1 or 2 percent market share"  bit I keep hearing. I don't know what or how they're 
getting that number, but it's far more than that. I suppose if they were tracking computers that came 
preinstalled with linux it might match, but otherwise definitely not. And this has notning to do with 
eclipse so I'll bring it back on topic. Sorry, my fault. I have a bad habbit of going off topic.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/20/2015 12:47 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I agree that it's all not just a numbers game. A critical bug on a 
platform that may not be the most popular may still need to be 
addressed before a lot of other bugs get addressed on a more popular platform.
That being said, if 95% of your users are on one platform then I 
think it would be hard to justify have the same number of developers 
work on each platform rather than giving a slight nod to a platform 
with so many users. this is just an example. I have no idea how many 
users Eclipse has on each platform.

I'm just saying that once you have more bugs then you have developers 
to work on, you have to start taking a lot of things into account 
when you decide which bugs get the attention of your developers. If 
the Orca developers fix a bug in Thunderbird support before Evolution 
support, should I be cynical that they're favoring Thunderbird and 
Mozilla over Evolution and Gnome? I don't think so. I just think 
they're doing the best job of allocating their scarce resources.

Sorry if I put words into your mouth, but I see a lot of posts on 
Linux and Android related lists where people think there's a 
conspiracy against their favorite platform and they'll use a bug 
that's near and dear to their heart to prove it. IMHO, things aren't 
that simple and the world is a much more complicated place.

On 09/20/2015 11:36 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:

Chris, I think a good approach might be to treat operating systems 
on a par and then prioritize within those.  Then, it might be more 
likely for the operating systems to gain or lose users on their own 
merits.  Maybe they can't do that, but if they can, they should.

I didn't intend to imply an eclipse developer conspiracy against Linux.
  If that was the fairest reading of my comment, then I apologize:  
I have no clue about what the eclipse developers think about 
software freedom or of Linux in particular, or even that there's a 
collective view.  I do tend to be cynical about a simple numbers 
game in that monopolies or near-monopolies tend to perpetuate their 
status, but that doesn't prove anything about the eclipse developers themselves.
My suggestion for how to deal with bugs is meant as a way to counter 
that tendency but not to become partial the other way.  (Freedom, 
after all, by definition includes the right to use proprietary
software.)

Al

On 9/20/2015 11:46 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

True, but the number of blind Eclipse users on Linux is capped by 
the number of Linux users, and I suspect there are more Eclipse 
users on Windows then there are on Linux. Although having Eclipse 
work on Linux will probably help Linux penetration, I doubt it'll 
be enough to swap the market penetration numbers between Linux and 
Windows. Your argument also holds true for Windows users. If 
Eclipse doesn't fix bugs in Windows then they'll lose Windows 
users, which is probably a greater number of users right now.

I'm not sure what the alternative is. Are you suggesting that 
Eclipse developers get together and agree not to fix accessibility 
bugs in Linux to drive the number of Linux users down towards their 
ultimate goal of not supporting Linux at all? Seems like it would 
be a lot easier to just drop support of Linux.

I suspect it's more likely that Eclipse is like every other 
software project out there and they have more bugs then they can 
work on at any one time, so they prioritize their bugs based on 
severity and pervasiveness, so bugs impacting just blind users on 
Linux, although they won't necessarily be ignored altogether, may 
not get fixed as quickly as similar bugs on platforms with a 
greater number of users at the moment. I believe this is the more 
likely scenario, and I don't buy into this conspiracy to keep Linux 
down, especially not from a project like Eclipse.

On 09/20/2015 08:02 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:

Although the numbers game is understandable, it would also tend to 
keep the number of Linux users low, and maybe justify giving up on 
Linux support.  Some cynicism seems in order.

Al

On 9/19/2015 10:16 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I'm not sure what criteria they use to prioritize their bugs, but 
I wouldn't be surprised if the number of users affected is part 
of the criteria. I'm guessing they have more Windows users then 
Linux users, so I wouldn't be surprised if bugs that show up only 
on Linux end up a bit lower in their priority queue. There's no 
cynicism involved here.

On 09/19/2015 07:48 PM, kendell clark wrote:

hi
My cinical side says they're prioritizing their windows 
accessibility over their linux accessibility, but don't take my 
word for it. I'm also not trying to start any debates either.
Having said all that, I'll give eclipse a go and start trying to 
use it. If it's bad, I'll start attaching debug logs so joanie 
can look at it and find out what's wrong.
Are there open bugs against eclipse I can comment on?
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/19/2015 11:30 AM, Michał Zegan wrote:

Currently they seem not to respond, erhaps because they have 
too many bugs to fix, or perhaps they lost interest. but 
probably not, hm

W dniu 19.09.2015 o 18:17, Jann Schneider pisze:

Hi,

if they will fix These issues they will make it into SR1 or 
later. So currently we have to use the Luna release - which 
works very well with Java 8 and These things ...

Regards
Jann


2015-09-19 16:37 GMT+02:00, kk <krmane gmail com>:

I am interested too.
This is suc a powerful tool that I can do some good stuff 
using it.
Happy hacking.
Krishnakant.


On Saturday 19 September 2015 05:21 PM, Michał Zegan wrote:

Hello, any progress with current eclipse accessibility bugs 
or whatever?
_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: 
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org








_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: 
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
[Date Prev][Date Next]   [Thread Prev][Thread Next]   [Thread Index] [Date Index] [Author Index]