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Re: [orca-list] linux versus windows was Re: GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization

hi
Apparently I'm replying to my own message lol. To explain my position a
little clearer when I'm not tempted to disagree with someone. I've used
both windows and linux and they're both usable. I find linux more
intuitive because I've become accustomed to having more software in a
default install than you typically get with a windows install. For
instance, when I install sonar on a system, it comes with orca
obviously, libre office, codecs for just about any file format including
dvd, blu ray disks and the ever popular mp3 format, as well as free and
open ones like ogg vorbis, flac and opus.  It also comes with a good web
browser and email client, though they obviously need to be set up. This
means I can listen to my music and watch my videos on a live image, as
well as immediately after an install. It's of course possible to get
these in windows with the k lite codec pack so windows isn't exactly
hard, it's just one more piece of software you need to install. To be
fair, with ninite it's not as painful as it used to be, because you can
generate  a tiny installer that will download the latest versions of
some popular software programs and install them. The one downside to
that is you need to have a working net connection for this to work. c:
d: etc aren't exactly hard for me, since I used windows long enough to
get used to the layout, but I find the linux layout of /dev/sdx more
intuitive.  Linux also supports every possible filesystem I could ever
come into contact with on a daily basis out of the box, and built in to
the kernel. Most linux distros install userspace tools to format and
manipulate microsoft ntfs partitions, but even without this support the
kernel can still mount them to access their data. I'm also accustomed to
being able to fix my own problems in some cases. An example of this
would be my logitech keyboard I just bought. It had zoom in, zoom out
and zoom on/off buttons that didn't work out of the box in linux, so I
mapped them using udev and now they work. This is of course pretty
technical and most users might not be able to, but I find it useful.
I'll also add that I tried to get this working in windows and couldn't,
even with the logitech software installed. Most of the keys worked, but
not those four. Neither OS is perfect. I don't think anyone on this list
has any problem helping people. We're not averse to "hey, orca needs
improvement in this area" posts, because no piece of software is
perfect. What I in particular have very little patience with is" orca
sucks because it doesn't do such and such like nvda or jaws does" That
shows a clear lack of effort to understand how orca does things, which
can be different than those screen readers. I like how orca handles web
content. The logical list of commands make sense to me and even if I
didn't like one of them, I could change it. Joanie did a fantastic job
when she designed that. I'm not as averse to virtual buffering as kyle
is although I'm not a real fan of it. tony's posts have been very polite
and it's not him I rant at. I don't know how long he's been around so
I'll repeat myself a little. When I rant, which I do far more often than
I should, it's usually not you personally I'm ranting at, as I did with
devin earlier. Someone usually says something that tips me over the
edge. I'm in the unhappy position of trying very hard to get blind
people to try linux. I have very little success, either because of my
approach or because the people I come into contact with, usually those
who play alter aeon and use mush z, are very ... how do I put this ...
dismissive is probably the politest word I can think of, so I'm usually
in a continuous state of frustration.  I'm usually tempted a few times a
year to just try this windows thing to see what all the hype is all
about. Generally I'm disappointed. It works well, sometimes, but it just
doesn't fit me. I'm too used to being able to fix a problem if it comes
up instead of being basically stuck. Long way of saying I'll do my best
to help anyone who asks, but I do have my sore points. Windows is one
very sore one, but others include "espeak sucks, why can't I have
quality  human sounding voices like windows and apple" and "I shouldn't
have to be a computer expert to use linux" If you're polite or at least
not abrasive most people on hear will do their best to help you, but you
can't, and by yoou I mean you in general, can't just come onto a linux
list and expect free support if you complain constantly.I'll close, I'm
about to take a nice long nap. I'll end by thanking everyone who works
so hard to keep linux accessible, and the hard working folks who spread
what linux can do. I try to help as best I can and I can't code beyond
simple bash scripts.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/03/2015 05:40 AM, kendell clark wrote:

hi
Changing the subject to reflect the topic.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/03/2015 05:20 AM, kk wrote:


Totally agreed Kendel +1 for your views, or +100 if I would.
Firstly Windows or Linux it has to be learned.
I often here people talking about Windows vs linux as if Windows
usability is as automatic as a child learns to drink milk naturally from
the mother's breast.
This basic attitude of Windows = cool, easy and powerful, and Linux =
tough, hard, unusable and "do it your self " is not just unfair but
outright stupid assumptions.
I had the unfortunate time to use Windows XP some years back and had
touched windows 7.  I just find it absolutely difficult and complex.
For example I never get the logic behind those c:s and d:s.
For me Home is place where I have my personal things, a pen drive is a
pen drive and cd is a cd.
Now I am not here to impose this view on others, There are people who
will find windows usable, that's ok, but let me tell you by my
experience, I had equal or perhaps a bit difficult to use windows
without reading documentation.
And free software like gnu/linux does not make you a mute consumer,
isolated and dominated by business policies.
This is a world in itself.  While one can do business and is is done all
the time with free and open source software, it is more of a united
"help each other " kind of culture.
Now Ubuntu or the distros there off have become out of the box easy to
use and I know of masses of students or teachers in many school who
started to use Linux in a days time.
I have been converting organizations of various sizes from proprietary
software to free software.
I never needed them to read a lot of documentation even before they got
started.
But yes Windows or Linux, fre or proprietary, at some point of time it
is expected that a person does read docs , either off lline or online to
learn firther and ask for help.
Happy hacking.
Krishnakant.




On Thursday 03 September 2015 03:24 PM, kendell clark wrote:

hi
Wrong. Just ... wrong. You do have a point that windows does have a
basic screen reader and has since ... I think, windows 2000. But there
are lots of linux images with orca included. I'll say this again. You
have to learn windows just as you had to learn how to read braille, it's
not automatic knowledge. And an attitude like yours is not going to
convince many people to do anything but complain. I can't speak to the
documentation quality of jaws as it is now, but the last time I took a
look at it was little more than a very long, very involved sales pitch
with  a little bit of help. I've never used a mac, so I can't speak to
how well it works, but if it's anything like windows there's basic
documentation that tells you how to use it on a basic level, but from
there you're expected to figure it out. If you refuse to read
documentation then there's little anyone, especially me, can do to help
you. As a matter of fact, I won't even bother to try helping someone if
their response to reading documentation is "but that's too hard." As for
rehab agencies, you're absolutely right. Why they don't at least
acknowledge linux I don't know. And it has very little to do with
windows being better in an accessibility point of view. My cinical side
suspects a payoff or a license agreement somewhere along the line. Is it
obvious which linux images are accessible? no, and this should probably
be improved upon. Of course if you use something like vinux or sonar
that's specifically designed for the blind then that's taken for
granted, but otherwise you have to have a basic idea of linux and which
desktop environments include orca which really isn't the way to go about
it. We as orca users are willing to help new users, so your talk of us
not being friendly to new users isn't true. If anything, the new users
are  generally spoiled and expect too much. They're used to complaining
and getting a fix in the form of a conveniently installable executible
that holds their hand. That's not how things work here. If you're going
to use linux, you're expected to contribute  and make it better. You're
not required to of course, but then if you give nothing, you can't
really expect anyone to jump to your aid when you have a problem. We'll
help you of course, this isn't any kind of exclusive club, but the
minute you start complaining we start losing interest. Someone who has
contributed to linux is likely to get some leeway, but even that runs
out eventually. If you  do nothing ... you have very little leeway left
if you start yelling because you're not getting helped fast enough, or
you don't like the answers you're given. I'm going to focus on making
linux better now, I find discussions like this rather pointless, even if
I have a hard time resisting them. The next post I see in this thread
that has anything to do with a windows vs linux topic is going to get a
subject change from me so people who actually want to improve orca can
delete them easily.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/03/2015 04:26 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:

On 9/2/2015 5:00 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I haven't been following this thread, but the post below either
confuses me
or I just don't agree. I can't think of a single screen reader where
you
don't need to know at least one key stroke before starting, such as
how to
bring up the preferences. You either have to know that key stroke or be
familiar enough with the operating system to know how to get into the
preferences for an application, which I think is what the post below is
disagreeing with.

In general, I agree with you.  Once you have basic familiarity with the
environment, what you say is valid.  Like you, I have yet to find a
screen reader that doesn't require you to know a keystroke to access the
prefs. However, if I can make a comparison to Windows for a moment,
there is at least one Windows screen reader which runs a getting started
wizard when it's launched for the first time.  It's very basic, but does
allow you to set the pitch and rate.  It also pops up a tip of the day
with helpful information, such as how to access the prefs.


Either way, it's an overly simplistic attitude to say that expecting
someone
to read some information about an application before using it is the
reason
so many people are put off by Linux.


Yes, well, simplistic or not, it's an unfortunate reality.  I can't tell
you how many people I've come across who were put off because they
complained that they had to read lots of docs before even getting
started.  I'm sorry, but we have to deal with reality whether we like it
or not.  I myself don't have that attitude and I don't mind reading
docs, but I'm the exception. How many times do you hear sayings like,
"If all else fails, read the instructions."  How many beginners actually
take the time to read the manual?  I'm sorry, but simplistic or not,
that's the way it usually is. This is even more so when you have the Mac
which includes accessibility automatically when the machine is first
configured.

Also, let me mention here that when most blind people get a computer
with Windows on it, there is already a screen reader installed.  I know
that rehab agencies purchase screen readers for their clients and I know
of a computer donation program which installs NVDA on donated machines.
Since it's still impossible for the blind to install Windows without
sighted help and since the two screen readers I've used have talking
installers, Linux has a strike against it from the point of view of a
Windows user before they even get started.  Expecting them to read a set
of docs on a foreign desktop environment with a foreign screen reader is
too much to ask, I think.  FYI, I didn't have a donated machine and I
didn't have rehab purchase a screen reader for me, so I'm more used to
figuring things out on my own.  The attitude above is not my opinion,
but reflects reality for most people that I've encountered.
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Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

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Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide:
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org



_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
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