Re: [orca-list] GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization

[kendell clark <coffeekingms gmail com>]

hi
This is very true. Unfortunately, accessibility docs are those that tend
to be out of date, mostly because as you say, they're written by
volunteers, but also I suspect because accessibility is ever changing,
unlike in windows. I'm sure windows does add new a11y code from time to
time, but I've yet to see the "wealth" of wonderful documentation and
standards that windows users claim is out there. Granted, I've not
looked hard, but a simple google search for something like "windows
accessibility API documentation" didn't turn up much. I've said it
before and I'll say it again. Linux *is not* perfect. Neither is windows
or apple, or osx. The main difference with linux is that you can fix it
if it breaks or improve it if it's lacking. Is it easy? Not always. But
that feeling when you fix a problem all by yourself or help someone else
do it ... indescribable. I don't know much about phone support. My own
experience with phone support has been pretty terrible. Thank you for
calling the company, how can I help you? Install our proprietary
software for windows. That doesn't work? Uh ... um ... uh ... I don't
know anything, please hold. Not that everyone is like that but that's
been my personal experience.
Thanks
Kendell clark


On 09/02/2015 11:38 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I get frustrated enough myself when somebody seems unwilling to read a
> relevant documentation, if that documentation is actually helpful.
> Having found my Linux road often rocky, in some part because I couldn't
> understand the documentation or because it didn't say much, I retain
> sympathy for the new user who finds Linux somewhat like bashing into a
> brick wall where an open door should be.  Yes, I know that docs come
> from volunteers, but if they don't work then it doesn't matter much. Not
> that I've necessarily found documents on proprietary software better,
> but some of those folks provide phone support that can make up for it.
>
> And yes, there is some really good documentation for Linux, mostly
> books, in my experience.  If we can point new folks to that stuff, and
> if it isn't outdated, then it's more reasonable to be annoyed if they
> don't give it a shot.
>
> Al
>
> On 09/02/2015 11:48 AM, kendell clark wrote:
> > **warning** Minor rant ahead
> > hi
> > I'm going to disagree here. Linux, like many things, requires you to
> > "learn" it. Windows was not self obvious when you first picked it up,
> > neither was whatever screen reader you use in it, jaws, nvda, etc. You
> > had to read the docs. If you're too good to read a simple help file,
> > then I really don't know what to tell you. Claiming linux is too hard
> > when you won't even try isn't a fault of linux, it's yours for not
> > trying. This isn't meant towards tony, but I'm getting disgusted with
> > this attitude so many blind people in particular have. If it won't think
> > for me, work automagically, and make my friggin coffee, then it's too
> > hard and I won't use it.
> > Thanks
> > Kendell clark
> >
> >
> > On 9/2/2015 6:15 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> > > On 9/1/2015 10:24 AM, B. Henry wrote:
> > > > Well, it's not unreasonalble to ask users to read a bit of
> > > > documentation to learn a keystroke or two when trying a new desktop,
> > > > but unless I'm missing
> > > > something folks like myself who use a window manager such as fluxbox
> > > > and fill in accessibility gaps with custom scripts would be left out
> > > > in the cold if
> > > > an orca prefs window was done away with.
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  I think that in this case, it is
> > > unreasonable to expect people to be required to read documentation in
> > > order to figure out how to set their Orca prefs. That attitude in
> > > general is why so many people, both blind and sighted, either are put
> > > off by Linux, won't try it in the first place or give up without ever
> > > installing it and giving it a fair chance.  I don't have a problem
> > > expecting people to read a basic accessibility guide and I agree that
> > > once people have learned the basics that they should be expected to
> > > read the docs, but expecting them to read the docs before they even
> > > get started is asking too much.  Other than your first statement, I
> > > agree with what I think you're trying to say.  I think you're agreeing
> > > with my previous post on the subject which is that regardless of what
> > > desktop or window manager, there needs to be a universal keystroke to
> > > access the Orca prefs.  I don't think people should have to read the
> > > docs to find it, however.
> > >
> > > What would be good is for Orca to open the prefs window automatically
> > > when it's started from a live environment so people don't have to hunt
> > > around to find them.  Maybe could a command line switch like --prefs
> > > be added for this?  I thought there was already such a switch, but I
> > > didn't see it when reading "orca --help" on my Ubuntu MATE 15.04 system.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > orca-list mailing list
> > > orca-list gnome org
> > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > orca-list mailing list
> > orca-list gnome org
> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org